We have been discussing how, by fermenting dairy or coconut milk products with Lactobacillus reuteri ATCC PTA 6475 and DSM 17938, we boost hypothalamic release of oxytocin that, in turn, yields increased dermal collagen, smooths wrinkles, accelerates healing, improves bone density, restores youthful strength and muscle, increases libido, and shuts down appetite.
Unfortunately, some people have misinterpreted this to mean that consuming yogurt in any form achieves these effects—not true. So let’s clear up this confusion.
To call something “yogurt,” by (semi-arbitrary) FDA guidelines, it must be fermented by the microorganisms Lactobacillus bulgaricus and Streptococcus thermophilus (unspecified strains). It can contain other fermenting species such as Lactobacillus acidophilus or Bifidobacteria species, but it must contains the first two species in order to be labeled “yogurt.” So our L. reuteri “yogurt,” if this were being sold commercially, could not be labeled as such because it was not fermented with Lactobacillus bulgaricus or Streptococcus thermophilus.
We are therefore not really making yogurt, but fermenting dairy or coconut milk with a unique microorganism to amplify bacterial counts of this specific species/strain. I’ve called it “yogurt” because it looks like yogurt, tastes like yogurt, and fits a familiar role in eating habits—but it’s NOT yogurt. And, of course, I’m not selling it to you.
So, by consuming Yoplait or Dannon or Stonyfield Farms yogurt, you will not be obtaining the L. reuteri-generated boost in oxytocin. I have nothing against these products (aside from the high sugar and/or high-fructose corn syrup content of some), but they do not provide the same benefits as our L. reuteri fermented product. Because this idea of fermenting with unique microorganisms is so new, there is no appropriate terminology for this. So I shall continue to call it yogurt for our non-commercial purposes, but don’t let that confuse you into thinking that all yogurts yield the same benefits, because they do not.
And, by the way, our “yogurt” is the beginning of an entire host of interesting possibilities in the targeted amplification of specific bacterial species and strains that yield health benefits. I foresee a time when you can take a specific strain or strains, amplify counts via fermentation to yield “yogurt,” and address various health conditions and, for instance, accelerate weight loss, reverse health conditions such as Parkinson’s disease, even improve mental and physical performance.
I have been making and eating L. reuteri yogurt for 4 or 5 months now. I ferment at 100 degrees F for 36 hours using half and half milk pasterized for 10 minutes at 180F and with added inulin.. Its very good, but I have actually gained weight. No idea if I am getting any other possible benefits. I lift weights 1 to 3 times per week and have put on muscle but do not know how much if any is attributable to the “yogurt”. I usually eat about 1 cup per day.
Christopher Moore wrote: «I ferment at 100 degrees F for 36 hours…»
Are you getting prominent watery whey fraction, and are you draining it off (to save as starter or discard)? Whey is insulinotropic, and can promote weight gain in a fraction of the population.
re: «…but I have actually gained weight.»
What’s the wider context here? What diet/lifestyle program are you on, and for how long? If WB/Undoctored, we could then explore various markers for insight.
re: «I lift weights 1 to 3 times per week and have put on muscle but do not know how much if any is attributable to the “yogurt”.»
If the gained weight is muscle mass, that’s not usually seen as a problem, unless your waistline suggests otherwise. Are you suspecting that the gain is fat?
re: «I usually eat about 1 cup per day.»
That might be too much. Dr. Davis has suggested ½ cup. Personally, I do ¼ cup, but I ferment for 42-48 hours.
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Im trying to get BMI measurements over time to see if my weight gain is muscle or fat. My muscle gain over the last two years is noticeable but no change in my belly where I carry more fat. The problem is, I dont have a record of my BMI from previous years.
The yogurt I make is usually a little thin and has a good amount of whey. Can you use just the whey for a starter? How much?
I eat relatively healthy but could stand improvement. Have not tried WB diet.
Christopher Moore wrote: «The yogurt I make is usually a little thin and has a good amount of whey.»
I make mine from just whole milk (not H&H), and let it run 42-48 hours. It produces a thick yogurt, and easily ladled-off whey fraction. This approach is because regional H&H products are unsuitable, the regional diary has not been able to keep up with demand for cream, scheduling convenience and simple economy.
re: «Can you use just the whey for a starter?»
That’s what I do. The whey goes into an ice cube tray, frozen, bagged and dated. It is slowly thawed for re-use.
re: «How much?»
I’m using 2 cubes per quart of substrate. I think that works out to about 5 tablespoons of whey per quart.
re: «I eat relatively healthy but could stand improvement.»
Whose definition of “healthy”? As you probably suspect, if it’s from the ADA (any), AHA, AMA, FDA, USDA/DGA, it’s anything but. The multitude of dissident diets are all over the map.
re: «Have not tried WB diet.»
Wheat Belly 10-Day Grain Detox (on the Books page), is the step-by-step dive-right-in way to approach it.
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I would use something more natural than inulin, because of this study https://www.genengnews.com/news/gut-bacteria-link-dietary-fiber-with-liver-cancer/
Maybe potato starch. Also, I don’t like anything ultra pasteurized. It kills everything. They call it “milk,’” but it doesn’t need to be refrigerated, and it can sit on the shelf for months. It doesn’t sit well with me—just my 2 cents.
PJ wrote: «I would use something more natural than inulin, because of this study…»
That paper, alas, is pay-walled at Cell. I would have a number of questions about it, and I’m unwilling to pay the troll just to discover that my usual suspicions are correct. If researchers want us to take them seriously, they need to stop hiding the data, and leaving us with just the spin (Abstracts and inept press articles).
Some remarks by people who did read the paper may be found here: Commentary: Dysregulated Microbial Fermentation of Soluble Fiber Induces Cholestatic Liver Cancer
It’s mice, and some arms were specific lab mouse breeds (they were originally looking for something else). From the commentary: “Fiber-induced liver cancer did not occur in WT mice, however, WT mice fed a high-fat diet (HFD) could be susceptible to liver cancer upon consumption of soluble fibers.”
The composition of the diets is something that is crucial to consider in rodent trials. Standard mouse and rat chows are incompetent, and catalog HFDs amount to outcome sabotage, because they rely on industrial grain and legume oils (which are high in obesogenic/inflammatory Omega 6 linoleic acid). My impression is that it doesn’t take much to induce liver problems and cancer on such diets.
re: «Maybe potato starch.»
You can do that, but I’ve stopped using it because PS tends to congeal at the bottom of the mix early in the ferment. If I were to try it again, I’d probably re-whisk at about 12 hours in.
re: «Also, I don’t like anything ultra pasteurized. It kills everything.»
In this case, that’s a benefit. We don’t want any competing microbes during this relatively long ferment. This is also why if raw milk is used, it must be pasteurized. The UHT process probably also causes some protein modification, and I’m not sure that’s a problem either (for yogurt), particularly if the dairy substrate is the common casein beta A1.
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Might tapioca starch work with this? Do you think it might tend to congeal at the bottom like you say potato starch does?
The reason I ask is that I happen to have some in the house (purchased for a recipe a while back, but now I can’t find the recipe). My inulin was past the expiration date, and no potato starch in the house.
I’ve already thrown out one batch of the “yogurt.” If you think the tapioca starch won’t work well, I’d rather hold off a day and get more inulin.
Thanks for all your assistance with our endless questions!
Kathy from Maine wrote: «Might tapioca starch work with this?»
I’d expect it to work about like potato starch, as it has about the same amylopectin content. It might get metabolized too fast for a longer ferment (over 36h).
re: «Do you think it might tend to congeal at the bottom like you say potato starch does?»
It could. I’ve stopped using potato starch for that reason (requiring a re-whisk at about 12 hours to restore uniformity), and because I’m happy with just inulin results.
re: «My inulin was past the expiration date,…»
If I ran into that situation, I’d use it anyway, but only because I re-pasteurize the dairy substrate with any extenders mixed in. Why would inulin even have an expiration date? If (as I suspect), it’s due to concerns about trace residual microbes, or opportunistics getting in after opening, then a re-cook would be expected to fix both.
re: «Thanks for all your assistance with our endless questions!»
If I had endless answers, I’d probably post a public FAQ about all this on the subscription forum. In the meantime, I just handle them as they arise.
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Thanks, Bob! I knew I should have waited 5 minutes longer for a response! I just crushed up the tablets and added the tapioca starch. Waiting for the cream/milk mixture to come back down to 100 degrees so I can do the slurry and then mix it all together.
I heated the cream/milk to about 120 and it’s cooling. Both were ultra-pasteurized, so I figured all I needed to do was to heat it up enough to dissolve the powder more readily once it comes down to around 100 again (rather than heating it to 185). Sound right?
Kathy from Maine wrote: «I heated the cream/milk to about 120 and it’s cooling. Both were ultra-pasteurized, so I figured all I needed to do was to heat it up enough to dissolve the powder…»
That’s the first report I’ve seen of anyone doing that, so I have no guesses as to benefits, other that it would be expected to jump-start the ferment, vs. warming up from cold-start.
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It is my understanding that those who’ve had the type of cancer hormone reactor positive (?), cannot eat this yogurt with L.reuteri….is that still so? Sure would be nice to get all the benefits from the yogurt that Dr. Davis talks about.
Loanne wrote: «It is my understanding that those who’ve had the type of cancer hormone reactor positive (?), cannot eat this yogurt with L.reuteri…»
That would be this guidance, as amended.
re: «…is that still so?»
I suspect that it’s still an abundance-of-caution situation, and that the net risk:benefit is simply not known.
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This is off-topic. Garden of Life OmegaZyme and Primal Defense supplements claim to be gluten free. They list barley grass juice and/or oat grass juice as ingredients. Would that be a problem with the Wheat Belly protocol?
Susan wrote: «Garden of Life OmegaZyme…»
What issue prompted consideration of that product?
re: «…and Primal Defense supplements…»
Which product(s)?
re: «They list barley grass juice and/or oat grass juice as ingredients.»
Those probably don’t pose any material toxin hazard per se. But they do make me wonder about the competence and marketing motivation of the product formulators.
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Would barley grass or oat grass juice be a problem on the wheatbelly diet, since they both come from grasses (not grass seed, but just the juice derived from the green part of the grain plant)?
Susa wrote: «Would barley grass or oat grass juice be a problem on the wheatbelly diet, since they both come from grasses (not grass seed, but just the juice derived from the green part of the grain plant)?»
These juices are low net carb, and generally lack the adverse proteins of the adult grass seed, but they can still harbor any adverse lectins (such as WGA in wheat grass).
But the wider question is: what is their supposed benefit?
These ingredients are commonly listed for “super greens” and other “super foods”, which are both legally vacant puffery. What magic are they supposed to represent?
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My gut recurrent discomfort is finally improving!
Could be the L. reuteri colonization is helping this, plus being more strict about limiting the carbs and strictly avoiding all grains. Not sure yet as to whether this yogurt diminishes my appetite or has helped increase muscle tissue. But, something in my elimination pattern has improved and that has improved my quality of life. I am sleeping longer hours too!
However, any time I eat/drink dairy, even fermented, the psoriatic patches in elbows re-appear. Very frustrating as to how I improve in one area and lose ground in another.
I tried making yogurt with a yogurt maker and canned coconut milk and it was difficult – it was still liquid after 16 hours. Disappointing bc I wasted 10 of the probiotic supplements and they aren’t cheap.
Questions:
1. Can I still use a tbs of it as starter for the next batch?
2. I used coconut milk bc I don’t eat dairy bc it upsets my stomach – but… am I understanding correctly that if I use whole milk and culture for 36 hours, the lactose will be gone (and probably my stomach woes)?
Thank you for such an informative blog!
Nora
Nora wrote: «I tried making yogurt with a yogurt maker and canned coconut milk and it was difficult…»
Here are the top 2 coconut yogurt recipes on the subscription site (the basenotes, with the details, are visible to non-subscribers):
JenB: Coconut milk l. Reuteri yogurt
Daphne: Daphne’s L-reuteri coconut milk yogurt UPDATED-no muss, no fuss, NOT vegan
I haven’t personally tried either.
re: «…it was still liquid after 16 hours.»
That’s not nearly long enough. 36-48 appears to be needed for coconut yogurt.
re: «…Can I still use a tbs of it as starter for the next batch?»
Only if you have some confidence that the culture is still active. For example, what coconut milk do you use? If it had any ingredients other than coconut and filtered water, it might have contained some emulsifier or preservative that has antibacterial properties.
re: «…am I understanding correctly that if I use whole milk and culture for 36 hours, the lactose will be gone (and probably my stomach woes)?»
Yes, and that can be confirmed with a $20 blood glucose meter. Check BG pre-consumption, and then 30-60 minutes post-consumption.
However, if you react to bovine dairy, don’t assume (as most people do) that it’s necessarily “lactose intolerance”. It could also be a reaction to casein beta A1 common in North American herds (which can be avoided by using A2 products).
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Thank you for the recipes – I will try them.
It’s been over 48 hours and it’s gotten slightly thicker, but not firm at all. If I am going to use it in a smoothie, is it ok to use?
There is a layer of skin (for lack of a better word) on top that is slightly darker than the rest of the product – should I remove that, or mix it in?
How would I have confidence that the culture is still active – is there a test of some sort? The coconut milk is: Trans fat free, gluten free, non GMO, preservative free. Ingredients: Coconut, water, guar gum.
Thank you!!
Nora Rucinski wrote: «It’s been over 48 hours and it’s gotten slightly thicker, but not firm at all. If I am going to use it in a smoothie, is it ok to use?»
There’s no way for me to accurately guess that. When I saw a similar result in a couple of experimental coconut batches over a year ago (before we had the two recipes above), I tossed them.
Also, even a suitable coconut milk or cream lacks adequate carbohydrate for fermentation. Did you add any sugar or starches to your mix?
re: «…Ingredients: Coconut, water, guar gum.»
The guar gum might be a problem. It’s an emulsifier, and I’m not confident that I understand any effects from it in a fermented recipe. We are similarly leery of gellan gum, locust bean/carob gum and lecithins. Carrageenan, polysorbate-80, carboxymethyl cellulose and sodium stearoyl lactylate are even more troubling. Another I just encountered yesterday is disodium phosphate.
I might add, for the wider audience, that these adverse thickeners are all too common in retail half&half, as well as retail cream, heavy cream and particularly heavy whipping cream. In a coconut milk or cream, the Ingredients list must be just coconut and filtered water.
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PLEASE READ MY STORY
Dear Dr Davis,
May I say this upfront, well, after 4 days of eating this yogurt or the whey, my appetite is completely under control. GOOD JOB MAN!
So, here is where I started.
1. I am 48 yrs old. Overall not really had any major health issues, a hernia, appendicitis (removed when I was 10 ish) your usual colds etc.
2. I found out about the keto diet and started trying it back in July 1st 2018. Well holy moly what a difference! I listened to all of Jason Fung podcast 33 episodes, then listened to all of the “Two Keto Dudes” podcasts almost 180 of them, then listened to whatever extra podcasts I could on the Keto diet.
3. I lost 35 lbs in less than 5 months with ZERO exercise (outside of my normal daily routine).
4. My pain in my right hand from inflammation from being a programmer had dissapeard!
5. The pain in my ankles I would get from walking down stairs each morning is GONE.
6. I hit 165lbs and my weight would not go down any more. For a 6ft guy I am fine with that.
THIS YOGURT IS THE MISSING LINK.
Keep in mind I say missing link in that there is so much more to explore here!
So, firstoff, I do want to fast every so often but I found fasting difficult due to the hunger (Grhelin kicking in EVEN in full Keto). Not sure why that is, anyway let me get to the point.
This “Yogurt” I would rather call a probiotic medium transfer and expansion mechanism, has absolutely made fasting far easier!
I honestly, real deal honestly asked myself if I am hungry after 24 hours of eating (after I starting using this “yogurt” which I made in a DASH yogurt maker) and guys Iand gals I am telling you outright that my hunger has maybe not entirely disappeared, but has been very seriously reduced making these fasts way way easier!
Keep in mind you will likely need to be Keto / Fat adapted first! That takes up to 8 weeks to achieve. I have been visiting this blog for at least 6 months and feel absolutely compelled to post now, after even less than a week, how this “lets just call it unconventional yogourt or UY for short” for the ease of this discussion.
On my fast days, which last up to 40 hours +, just drink a shot of the WHEY and your cravings will soon, very soon subside and you will be back in full control! That and some Himalayan (ancient) sea salt here and there but hardly needed to control your hunger on over a 24 hour fast.
From what I have gathered so far, I would say DO NOT give a nobel prize to Dr. William Davis, but create a new one, a respectable prize that has not been terribly polluted by politics, one that that reflects the new reality of health that William Davis has consistently tried to bring to the public at large.
The new world is here, take control of your health and alot of absolutely terrific information is there at your fingertips!
Do read this post seriously from a hardcore sceptic, and give it a shot, take it from me, be Keto adapted FIRST then try this, YOU WILL SEE!
John St Pierre wrote: «I found out about the keto diet and started trying it back in July 1st 2018.»
Were you cycling in an out of keto, or have you been in continuous ketosis for the last year?
Sub-seasonal keto is a tool in the box here, useful specifically for breaking through a weight loss stall. Most people following WB/Undoctored are likely cycling in and out daily, some deliberately via approaches like 16:8 IF (which makes us keto-adapted).
But chronic keto is discouraged. See: Is the ketogenic diet dangerous?
One of the issues is the difficulty to obtaining adequate prebiotic fiber intake for microbiome support. The list of sources is basically cut in half due to net carbs. With insufficient carbohydrate substrate for gut flora, the population is going to shift and probably decline, with somewhat unpredictable health consequences. Extended keto likely amounts to a gut flora reset, and one that is not well characterized today.
re: «This “Yogurt” I would rather call a probiotic medium transfer and expansion mechanism,…»
The probiotic part of that could easily be a factor, but the yogurt alone is not the wider program element: gut flora cultivation.
re: «…just drink a shot of the WHEY and your cravings will soon…»
Neat that it works for you, but deliberate whey consumption is something that a material fraction of the population needs to avoid, due to its propensity to trigger insulin.
re: «…Keto adapted FIRST then try this,…»
Great result, but it’s hard to say just what did what. Thanks for the report.
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I am on my fifth batch made with whole pasteurized goat milk and inulin. I am seeing great benefits for myself…but my husband believes the yogurt is making him feel nauseous. He took a 4 day break from the yogurt and had some again yesterday…he is feeling nauseous again this morning. Does anyone have any idea what is going on with him?
Kathy wrote: «…but my husband believes the yogurt is making him feel nauseous.»
I don’t recall seeing any reports of that to date.
My first thought is: what’s the wider context here? What diet/lifestyle are you both on, and for how long?
If WB/Undoctored, has there been any focus on gut flora cultivation, and in particular any insights from a prebiotic fiber challenge?
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What age can you start taking this yogurt .L-reuteri
Can breastfeeding mothers take this at age 42 and baby is 8 months
Debbie wrote: «Can breastfeeding mothers take this at age 42 and baby is 8 months»
This might answer your question: I was wrong: Young people SHOULD obtain L. reuteri
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I am on my 4th batch of the L Reuteri yogurt. I love this stuff, I can eat it plain or with fruit. My first two batches were made with a pressure cooker and the last two with a sous vide circulator. I love the ease of sous vide. I mix 2 tbsp. of inulin in a small amount of the H&H Horizon organic,( which Costco sells for 4.99 or 5.99 per half gallon, a very good price). I found gradually adding the inulin helps it not to clump so bad, then add 2 tbsp. of yogurt from the previous batch then top off to 4 cups of H&H. I then measure out 1/2 cup of the mixture into canning jars and lightly tighten a plastic lid. I tried one of the metal lids once and it rusted, so i’m sticking with the plastic lids. Every batch has been thick with very little whey. So far no digestive upset and it doesn’t seem to stuff up my sinuses like regular yogurt does. I actually used some of the yogurt topically on an atopic dermatitis outbreak I had and it really helped to heal it. My sleep pattern is improving. Some days my appetite is muted and other days, not so much. The only exercise I do is walking, I’ve started doing a 30 second plank a few times a day and am feeling stronger. I had my 60th birthday last month so I am looking to make small gradual changes to maintaining a good healthy strong body. I’ll keep making the yogurt because it is so easy with the sous vide. Very happy with it, thanks for sharing it Dr. Davis.
We live a healthy grain free organic lifestyle. Just found on the Livestrong website that the l. Reuteri strain lives in the stomach (rather than the intestines) and can cause nausea in some people.. My husband will take a week off and then try the yogurt again.
To Kathy about L. reuteri in the stomach:
“Another study conducted with 127 subjects evaluated their gastrointestinal
(GI) health over a 9-week period, and those treated with reuteri NCIMB 30242
had a significant improvement in self-reported GI symptoms with the most
significant improvement being reduction of diarrhea .”
From here: https://microbiomeplus.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Everything-You-Need-To-Know-About-Microbiome-and-Probiotics-Ebook-final.pdf
The document was slow to download, but info and sources are worth waiting for it to show!
I have been making L. Reuteri yogurt for just over 3 months and LOVE it and feel a sense of well-being after consuming it. I do not eat dairy so made it initially with coconut milk. I had adverse reactions to the coconut so switched over to making it with homemade almond milk. I had read a comment that I believe Dr. Davis made that there wasn’t enough fat in the almond milk to work well although I have felt that I was getting benefits. I since have switched over to making it with macadamia nuts/milk which has a richer creamier texture similar to the coconut.
Is it possible that because I am using nut milk instead of dairy or that I am not getting the full benefit of the L. Reuteri bacteria? I would very much appreciate any input. Thank you!
Elizabeth Kelly wrote: «I do not eat dairy…»
Do you know why?
re: «…so made it initially with coconut milk. I had adverse reactions to the coconut…»
If that’s thought to be a nut allergy, don’t be surprised if it recedes in time on the WB or Undoctored program. Alternatively, what coconut-based recipe were you using?
re: «…homemade almond milk.»
What recipe for that? I probably don’t need to tell you that commercial almond “milks” are pretty sad.
re: «…I believe Dr. Davis made that there wasn’t enough fat in the almond milk to work well…»
That might affect how thick it gets, but the bigger problem with nut milk mimics is lack of carbohydrate for the L.reuts to metabolize.
re: «Is it possible that because I am using nut milk instead of dairy or that I am not getting the full benefit of the L. Reuteri bacteria?»
It’s apparently possible to get perceptible benefits from the tablets alone, but it takes 6 or more at a time, which is obviously not practical (but might become so with the new Biogaia® Osfortis® product, not so far evaluated).
My guess that what you are making is resulting in CFU replication, and enough of it that you are getting perhaps a billion or more CFUs in a portion size.
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Wow – thanks for the quick response.
1. Dairy is incredibly congesting for me. Although I have followed Dr. Davis WB program strictly for a number of years (3? 4?), I do not eat dairy (also an allergy test showed positive for cow milk).
2. I did the coconut based yogurt for about 6 weeks and it started to cause mushy bowels. I used the recipe provided which is 1 qt of organic/no additive coconut milk; 3 T gelatin, heat to 180, then cool to 100, add slurry of 1T sugar and 2T inulin with 10 tabs of Bio Gaia or starter from previous batch. I use the Luvele yogurt maker, keep it at 100 degrees for 36 hours, chill and enjoy! :)
3. Yup – purchased almond milk is sad. I make almond milk using raw almonds, soak overnight, blend, strain, and then repeat same above recipe. I have been doing this L. Reuteri for about 4 weeks and just started using raw macadamia nuts thinking the fat content might be better.
I am a newcomer to making yogurt and liked the L. Reuteri so much that I started making my own homemade regular nut milk yogurts too.
Yikes – I want the trillion CFU benefit! :) Do you think the 1T sugar is enough for it to metabolize? I’d be willing to go back to the coconut milk if I’m not getting the full benefit. Thanks for your help.
Elizabeth Kelly wrote: «…an allergy test showed positive for cow milk…»
It’s worth drilling down to: just what in the bovine dairy?
There are in general 4 potential issues with bovine dairy: lactose, casein beta form, whey fraction and hormones (native or supplemented). Some of these can be eliminated or substantially reduced by various means, and, over time, most food allergies are worth cautious re-challenge.
re: «…coconut based yogurt … I used the recipe provided…»
If you want to re-try, here are a couple of more evolved recipes:
JenB: Coconut milk l. Reuteri yogurt
Daphne: Daphne’s L-reuteri coconut milk yogurt UPDATED-no muss, no fuss, NOT vegan
The basenotes, with the recipes, are visible to non-subscribers.
re: «Do you think the 1T sugar is enough for it to metabolize?»
Per quart, that seems like a reasonable amount.
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I read that fermentation you do is at least 36 hours. The first batch I had to do for that long with not very desirable results. Lumpy and a lot of whey. I used H&H and the inulin with the crushed tablets. I use a couple spoonfuls of first batch with inulin and about a tbs h&h to make slurry and add rest of h&h with subsequent batches. I cook in a sous vide @ 100o for 10 to 12 hours and it comes out smooth and creamy and thick. A long explanation to ask if the time is ok or is there any reason it should cook longer?
Donna wrote: «I read that fermentation you do is at least 36 hours.»
That’s the recipe length for dairy-based recipes. Dr. Davis has suggested 48h for his coconut recipe. I personally run 42-47h for my own recipe (which is just whole milk). Longer than 48 is not recommended due to risk of contamination by environmental microbes, fungi in particular.
re: «The first batch I had to do for that long with not very desirable results. Lumpy and a lot of whey.»
First batches can be like that regardless. My guess is that the crushed tablets provide a relatively finite number of nucleation sites, thus the lumps. Subsequent batches, from saved starter or whey, tend to be more uniform.
re: «I cook in a sous vide @ 100o for 10 to 12 hours and it comes out smooth and creamy and thick. A long explanation to ask if the time is ok or is there any reason it should cook longer?»
CFU counts and metabolic byproducts — if you want to compare, on your next batch, pull some at 12, 24, 36 and 48 hours, and see what you get.
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Is there an easy way to compare the CFU’s.? Looks to me you have to have use of scientific equipment and knowledge to figure it out. My take away seems to be the longer you cook it, more CFU’s and more beneficial?
Donna wrote: «Is there an easy way to compare the CFU’s.?»
At home? Not that I know of. I do wonder, however, if change in pH might be a proxy for it.
re: «Looks to me you have to have use of scientific equipment and knowledge to figure it out.»
We are relying to some extent on theory here: The arithmetic of yogurt
re: «My take away seems to be the longer you cook it, more CFU’s and more beneficial?»
Until the substrate is exhausted, and things may have gone off the rails before that point is reached.
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“That might affect how thick it gets, but the bigger problem with nut milk mimics is lack of carbohydrate for the L.reuts to metabolize.”
Just to clarify… I am still wondering if the 1T of sugar per quart added to nut milk is enough carbohydrate to get the level of cultivation (in the trillions) that the whole milk or coconut milk provides. Or are you (acknowledging that it is difficult to assess for sure) still doubtful that I can get the full benefits from nut milk?
Also, I saw someone mention goat milk – is that an appropriate vehicle for full cultivation?
Thanks again!
ElizabethK wrote: «I am still wondering if the 1T of sugar per quart added to nut milk is enough carbohydrate to get the level of cultivation (in the trillions) that the whole milk or coconut milk provides.»
I haven’t experimented enough with non-dairy yogurt to know. One tbsp. is what Dr. Davis suggests.
re: «Or are you … still doubtful that I can get the full benefits from nut milk?»
My presumption, based on no real data, is that it’s possible. We have any number of people making non-dairy versions of this fermented product, and I haven’t yet seen any complaints of: hey, this stuff doesn’t really work.
re: «Also, I saw someone mention goat milk — is that an appropriate vehicle for full cultivation?»
It might actually be ideal, as caprine dairy is casein beta A2. I’ve made the yogurt from pasteurized raw goat milk (back when our herd of dwarf Nigerians was in milk), and from reconstituted powdered goat milk (Mt. Capra brand, whole). It still requires the prebiotic ingredient, of course.
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