People seem to be having a tough time locating the Wheat Belly Blog post in which I summarized how we make the L. reuteri yogurt, so I’m re-posting it. Remember: It’s NOT about yogurt; it’s about a means of amplifying the counts of a specific bacteria that possesses unique properties. To maximize bacterial counts, the recipe to make the yogurt therefore includes a prebiotic fiber and prolonged fermentation, very different from conventional yogurt. And, no, NONE of these benefits come from consuming conventional yogurt.
We make the yogurt with two strains of Lactobacillus reuteri ATCC PTA 6475 and DSM 17938, based on the detailed studies conducted at MIT and elsewhere, both experimental animal and human, that have suggested dramatic effects. Those effects include:
- Complete shut-down of appetite, an “anorexigenic” effect, that can be used to facilitate intermittent fasting or break a weight loss plateau. This, along with an increase in metabolic rate, explain why weight loss results.
- Dramatic increase in skin thickness and skin collagen, along with acceleration of skin healing, a surrogate for overall youthfulness and health. I’m a big fan of dietary collagen, such as those provided by collagen hydrolysates, bone broths/soups, slow-cooking meats, eating the skin on chicken and fish, etc. This L. reuteri strategy amplifies this effect considerably.
- Increased oxytocin–A doubling of oxytocin blood levels was observed in mice, the effect responsible for the extravagant skin benefits, reduced insulin resistance, dramatic increases in testosterone in males, increased estrogen in females (magnitude unclear), thicker and more plentiful hair (though the consistency of this effect is not yet clear).
Other studies have demonstrated substantial weight loss, especially from visceral fat, increased muscle mass, and increased bone density (protection from osteoporosis/osteopenia).
Put all these effects together—caloric reduction, increased skin health, increased bone density, fat loss, muscle gain, reduced insulin resistance, etc.—and you have one of the most powerful anti-aging, youth-preserving strategies I have ever come across.
Because the most robust data were generated using the ATCC PTA 6475 strain of L. reuteri and, to a lesser extent, the DSM 17938 strain, I have been confining my efforts to these strains. Other L.reuteri strains may mimic these effects, but we simply don’t know that for certain, as the studies have not been performed. Strain specificity can be a crucial factor. After all, all of us have several strains of E. coli in our intestines that live quietly and don’t bother anyone. But, get exposed to strains of E. coli from contaminated produce and you develop life-threatening diarrhea and kidney failure that can be fatal, especially in children. Same species (E. coli), different strains—strain specificity can be a critical factor.
So I have been amplifying bacterial counts by making yogurt. The counts are further increased by performing fermentation in the presence of prebiotic fibers. Just as ingesting prebiotic fibers increases bacterial counts in your intestines, so it goes in making yogurt, as well. It also yields a thicker, richer end-product. (I don’t know why EVERY commercial yogurt maker doesn’t adopt this practice, as the results are so much superior both in bacterial counts and in taste/texture.)
The yogurt is thick, delicious, and contains a marked increase in bacterial counts. (We are in the process of performing formal counts). Given the extraordinary thickness of the end-product, it is likely that trillions of CFUs are present, sufficient to convert the soupy liquid of your starting milk, half-and-half, cream, coconut milk or other starter to rich, thick yogurt, sometimes thick enough to stand up on a plate. People who consume 1/2 cup per day of this preparation (mixed with blueberries, strawberries, etc.) are reporting the effects listed above. And this yogurt is so much richer and better tasting than products you buy in grocery stores.
There are probably many ways to make this yogurt and yield the bacterial counts you desire. But this is how I do it:
1 quart of organic half-and-half (or cream, whole milk, canned coconut milk, goat’s milk/cream, sheep’s milk/cream)
2 tablespoons inulin or unmodified potato starch or other prebiotic
10 tablets of BioGaia Gastrus, crushed
The probiotic tablets can be crushed using a mortar and pestle or other hard object (clean stone, bottom of a thick drinking glass, rolling pin, etc.). Don’t worry: The end-product should have little remaining sugar or starch, as it is fermented to lactic acid. (If in doubt, just let it ferment a few more hours.) Just as the cucumbers you grow in your garden were fertilized with cow manure but ripe cucumbers contain no cow manure, so the final fermented yogurt product should contain little to no sugar or starch.
(Coconut milk is tougher to work with. If you use coconut milk, you will need to add sugar, e.g., one tablespoon, to the prebiotic or use more sugar in place of the prebiotic, as there is no lactose to ferment in coconut milk. You will also need to preheat the coconut milk in a saucepan to 180 degrees F; add 3 tablespoons powdered gelatin and stir until dissolved; cool to 100 degrees F, then use a stick blender for 30-40 seconds to emulsify the oil; add crushed tablets or two tablespoons of a prior batch.)
In large glass/ceramic bowl, combine 2 tablespoons of liquid with the inulin or other prebiotic and the crushed probiotic tablets (or two tablespoons of yogurt from a prior batch). We start by making a slurry, as inulin or potato starch will form hard clumps if added to the entire volume. Mix thoroughly by hand and make sure the prebiotic is dissolved. Then add the remaining liquid and stir.
Maintain the mixture at 100 degrees F for 36 hours. This can be accomplished with a yogurt maker, Instant Pot, sous vide device, rice cooker, or any other device that allows maintaining a continual temperature in this range. I use my oven: Turn onto any temperature, e.g., 300 degrees, for about 60-90 seconds, just until a desert-hot temperature is reached. Turn off the oven; repeat every 4-6 hours—not precise, but it works fine when using dairy for fermentation. I also used a yogurt maker and sous vide with good results. Of all your choices, the sous vide is the easiest and most foolproof. (Some other devices have too high a temperature setting that kills L. reuteri that is not as heat tolerant as some other microbes used to ferment yogurt.) The prolonged fermentation is not how conventional commercial yogurt is made, typically fermented for only a few hours, yielding low bacterial counts and plenty of residual lactose and intact casein. The fermentation methods I use involve 1) addition of the prebiotic fiber to enhance bacterial counts, and 2) prolonged fermentation that likewise yields greater bacterial counts while exhausting most of the lactose that is converted to lactic acid that, in turn, denatures (breads down) much of the casein beta A1 protein.
The first batch tends to be a bit thinner with curdles, but subsequent batches tend to be thicker and smoother. To make subsequent batches, reserve a few tablespoons from the prior batch and use in place of crushed tablets, since your yogurt should contain plentiful microbes. Optionally, strain your yogurt through cheesecloth to remove the whey and create Greek-style yogurt, or simply pour off the whey.
If you give it a try, be sure to come back and report your experience. If you are encountering difficulty, see this troubleshooting guide.
Dear Dr Davis,
I’m on my 4th batch of this yogurt. I bought a yogurt maker but I suspect the temp was too high as the first batch did nothing. I then tried your oven method and it works great every time (36 hours). So thick that a spoonful turned upside down will stay there indefinitely. Flavor like none other. I’ve had terrible insomnia for years and I typically wake up every two to four hours during the night. I have noticed now that I frequently sleep for longer periods (up to six hours at a time). What a treat! Below is an interesting article I came across by cancer scientist Mel Greaves about childhood leukemia and gut health.
Thank you, can’t wait to see how the bacterial count goes.
Best, Erin
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/dec/30/children-leukaemia-mel-greaves-microbes-protection-against-disease?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other&fbclid=IwAR3vMbcO8JcKkfrpk55r3-WpBv4vNFEBje99IDEpjwpsRIApCtmvoapgHcA
I have just put my first batch in the yogurt maker but I added a couple of tablespoons of the last yogurt I made as a starter. I didn’t realise that the Gastrus tablets would do it on their own. Have I spoiled it?
Jean wrote: «I have just put my first batch in the yogurt maker but I added a couple of tablespoons of the last yogurt I made as a starter.»
What was the “last yogurt”? It sounds like it wasn’t using L.reuteri bacteria.
re: «Have I spoiled it?»
If the last batch was some other microbe(s), it’s probably spoiled for use as future starter, and may even be unpleasant to consume (as normal yogurt bacteria usually aren’t optimal for a 36 hour ferment).
If the last batch was also from Biogaia® Gastrus®, you’re fine.
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Hi, Bob
The last batch was from Fage Greek yogurt which I have been using to make yogurt for several months. It has L. Bulgaricus, S. Thermophilus, L. Acidophilus, Bifidus, L. Casei so it may not do well with a long fermentation. I will investigate it after 8 hours and probably use it at that stage if it is okay and then start a proper fermentation next time.
Thank you for the reply
Jean,
I have used commercial yogurt to seed “24 Hour” yogurt with great success. This is a relatively old idea that comes from the Specific Carbohydrate Diet (SCD), which is an elimination / reintroduction plan to fix gut issues. The idea behind the yogurt, is to ferment for 24 hours in order to consume all of the lactose and have higher bacteria counts. See this post from 2010: https://scdlifestyle.com/2010/08/scd-legal-yogurt-is-the-difference-maker-dont-eat-it-at-your-own-risk/
I have used regular, plain, whole milk products from Stonyfield and Strauss without fail.
Thanks John. I have not heard of the SCD so I will look it up. My 24 hour yogurt seems to have worked well. I have frozen some as a starter for next time and i’ll go from there for a bit. I was told to use UHT milk in a carton as it has already been heated and cooled and that seems to work well.
John Es wrote: «I have used commercial yogurt to seed “24 Hour” yogurt with great success.»
Due to the thread context, we need to be clear that making your own standard yogurt is great, and using suitable live-culture commercial yogurt as starter is a gambit with advantages, but this is a completely separate topic from the recipe at hand.
We only want specific strains of L.reuteri in the basenote recipe, and it brews longer, and at a lower temp than standard yogurt. For example, my ad-hoc reactor setup (linked earlier), can’t actually be used for standard yogurt. I’d have to dig out our not-so-smart pot, which runs 10°F warmer.
re: «I have used regular, plain, whole milk products from Stonyfield and Strauss without fail.»
We use a cream & whole milk from a local near-organic (but A1) dairy. The major brands in local groceries are usually unsuitable. Carrageenan, polysorbate 80, and other junk abound. Any actual preservatives can be expected to sabotage the ferment.
SCD arises as a topic from time to time, perhaps most recently here.
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Hi Bob,
I thought about mentioning my comment as “Off Topic”. I was just pitching in to help salvage Jean’s batch.
BTW, the Strauss and Stoneytfield products I mentioned were used for seeding. Both are organic, and contain no extraneous ingredients, except the Stoneyfield contains pectin. The point was, I didn’t use Fage, like Jean.
John Es wrote: «I was just pitching in to help salvage Jean’s batch.»
And I was just making sure that was clear, as we’ve already had cases of people mixing commercial yogurt into the L.reut brew, one in this thread.
Failed batch rescue/salvage is a topic all its own, and can be a complex decision tree, including trouble shooting of what went awry.
re: «BTW, the Strauss and Stoneytfield products I mentioned were used for seeding. Both are organic, and contain no extraneous ingredients, except the Stoneyfield contains pectin.»
Sounds great. I’ve been shocked at what passes for “milk”, “cream”, and particularly “half&half” in typical dairy cases. As always, if a product comes in a package, both the NF panel and the Ingredients lists must be examined with a critical eye. Pectin might actually be useful in this yogurt, as it appears that L.reut can metabolize the various pectic polysaccharides therein.
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Usually, when making yoghurt, I heat the milk to 180 degrees, then let it cool to 100 degrees. The recipe above doesn’t mention heating the milk. Was that an oversight?
Susan wrote: «Usually, when making yoghurt, I heat the milk to 180 degrees, then let it cool to 100 degrees.»
As do I. I just made a batch last night, and held the dairy+inulin+whisk at above 180°F for 10 minutes, then cooled in a water bath to 105, before adding the starter and moving to the pre-warmed reactor.
re: «The recipe above doesn’t mention heating the milk. Was that an oversight?»
It has been mentioned in the past. [Re]pasteurization is optional for pasteurized dairy. It is mandatory if using raw milk, both because we want to ensure that the only microbes growing are L.reuteri, and the risk of amplifying random raw dairy pathogens is way too high in a 36 hour ferment.
If doing a “cold start”, you really need to be using a device with closed-loop temperature control (such as a sous vide or yogurt maker), or you need to deliberately pre-warm the mix to ~100°F before placing it in the device. Using a stray-heat system, such as an oven lamp, or lamp-in-a-cooler (as I do) can be expected to not work with fridge-temp ingredients, as it might take a day to drift up to optimal temp.
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I love this yogurt. It’s the first that I have enjoyed eating plain. Can’t say that I notice changes in appetite or hormones, although my gut has been robustly healthy since starting it.
I top it with a rounded Tbsp of inulin. Doesn’t change the flavor, but gives me half of my day’s resistant starch (10g).
This yogurt plus apple cider vinegar with meals and bedtime eliminated previous need for anti-acids.
I use your “Yogurt Reactor” to make it. After some experimentation, a 60 watt incandescent bulb is perfect for my cooler (Winter). May have to reduce to 40 watt in Summer.
I found that heating to 180F for a few minutes makes smoother yogurt. Had more curds and whey when I did not pre-heat the substrate.
This recipe gets my vote for “Best Keto Recipe”.
Bill B wrote: «I love this yogurt. It’s the first that I have enjoyed eating plain.»
Mine goes into the morning smoothie, although stirred-in with a long spoon post-blend, rather than blended (until I understand more about post-ferment blender issues).
re: «I top it with a rounded Tbsp of inulin. Doesn’t change the flavor, but gives me half of my day’s resistant starch (10g).»
My smoothie also includes some sliced raw potato, and a tbsp of my home-made prebiotic mix, which is partly inulin. I’m likely getting more than 20g/day total prebiotic.
re: «This yogurt plus apple cider vinegar with meals and bedtime eliminated previous need for anti-acids.»
Cool. Sort of ironic that part of the fix for presumed excess stomach acid is more acid (in both the ACV and the lactic acid of the yogurt).
re: «I use your “Yogurt Reactor” to make it.»
Neat. Thanks for the report.
re: «I found that heating to 180F for a few minutes makes smoother yogurt. Had more curds and whey when I did not pre-heat the substrate.»
Heating modifies the proteins. Whether this is a net benefit for the yogurt is still on the table, but no detriments are so far reported. It also might depend on whether the beta casein is A1 or A2 to begin with. It certainly enables more predictable re-use of yogurt as starter (whether generational or dedicated freezer batch).
re: «This recipe gets my vote for “Best Keto Recipe”.»
It likely is serendipitously fully keto-compatible, although that probably wasn’t a design objective for the recipe.
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> ironic that part of the fix for presumed excess
> stomach acid is more acid
Yeah, that was a surprise. A Dr Berg video turned me on to it. He says that acid reflux comes from the small intestines, caused by too-low acid in the stomach.
It took a bit of experimentation to get the balance and timing right. I first tried ACV in water, but it was too harsh and too much trouble to do before every meal. I wound up taking ACV capsules (450mg ACV, one cap before each meal and at bedtime).
That plus the yogurt = digestion perfection, as far as I can tell.
Thank you for a good report on the ACV tablets as I was wondering if they work well. I am using an enamel sensitivity toothpaste since doing ACV, lemon juice and cranberry juice in water every am
Hi Bob, what do you mean post ferment blender issues? I’ve made several batches with a great deal of success. I always make smoothies with it. Is there a concern regarding the blender? Btw, your instructions are great.
Pamela wrote: «…what do you mean post ferment blender issues?»
In at least one of the subscription site weekly video meets, a member has mentioned using a stick blender on the finished yogurt, and Dr. Davis advised not doing that. He didn’t get into the biomechanics, and I haven’t had a chance to neighbor with him about that, and gain any insight on the concern.
My guess would be fluid shear stresses destroying the live bacteria.
re: «…your instructions are great.»
Thanks, but in my defense, I used to do that for a living.📖
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https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2251729413000256
I have made 4 batches. First worked great. Next 3 tries (from a new box ) did not work. Never solidified. Could something be wrong with the new box of Gastrus. I use sous vide method at 102 degrees.
Sharon Darr wrote: «Next 3 tries (from a new box ) did not work.»
Are you starting from crushed tablets every time? That’s expensive (and probably means a lower CFU count on start, just one billion). It’s much more efficient to use some of a brewed batch as starter, perhaps:
• separated whey (may be frozen as cubes)
• dedicated starter batch (frozen as cubes)
• generational portions
I’ve done all, and presently prefer dedicated starter batch.
re: «Could something be wrong with the new box of Gastrus.»
Where are you geographically, and where did the Gastrus® come from? There have been a couple of reports that make me wonder if the product is getting irradiated in shipment (particularly with government mail systems, and at borders). There are also concerns about hot summer shipments, in case this is a box delivered in, say, August.
re: «I use sous vide method at 102 degrees.»
Presumably you have verified that the device is really running at 102°F by means independent of it’s own display, and you are letting it run for 36 hours. We could also explore what milk/H&H/cream product(s) you use, and what prebiotic fiber you are adding.
This older thread might be worth a look: Troubleshooting L. reuteri yogurt-making
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I have enough to try one more batch. Sous Vide is accurate. This time I will mix the inulin into the total amt of organic half and half instead of into the small amount along with the Gastrus. Yes, crushed. Maybe I should use potato starch instead of inulin although it is a new bottle of inulin. It worked beautifully the first time and I am not doing anything different except a new pkg. Frustrating. Thank you for your help.
Sharon Darr wrote: «This time I will mix the inulin into the total amt of organic half and half instead of into the small amount along with the Gastrus.»
Although that mixing the starter into the inulin is how Dr. Davis does it, I’ve always prepped the dairy and the prebiotic fiber completely, then added the starter when it’s ready. I do this in part because I never cold-start, and always pasteurize everything but the starter.
By the way, other than not solidifying, was there anything else odd about the apparently failed batches? They might have made great starter, if not particularly great yogurt.
re: «Maybe I should use potato starch instead of inulin although it is a new bottle of inulin.»
I’ve stopped using potato starch. The yogurt is more consistent with just the inulin, and the potato starch has a tendency to form congealed clumps before the ferment even begins.
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Worked! Added the inulin to the half-and-half and the probiotic separate in a small container with some of the half an and then combined them. Very careful with the heat. Question. When I make another batch from the yogurt do I add more inulin ?
Sharon darr wrote: «When I make another batch from the yogurt do I add more inulin?»
Yes. The prebiotic fiber or additional carbon substrate (e.g. sugar, if used) is part of the recipe, added every time.
What does change is that batch #1 is made from tablets. Subsequent batches use saved yogurt as starter. This starter is likely to have dramatically more CFUs, which generally creates a thicker, more pungent product.
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Does the liquid have to be heated to a high temperature before being reduced and maintained at 100 degrees?
I tried making it in the instant pot and it was a falure.
Believe the Half & Half or milk used must be heated only if unpasteurized. And be sure NOT to heat the bacteria or the slurry mixture you prepare.
Eileen Jinks wrote: «Does the liquid have to be heated to a high temperature before being reduced and maintained at 100 degrees?»
As mentioned earlier, that’s optional for pre-pasteurized ingredients, but mandatory for raw dairy ingredients. Personally, I do it always, with the prebiotic fiber (inulin) and the whisk also in the pot during the repasteurization.
It’s crucial, of course, that the starter (tablets or save yogurt portion) not be in the mix during pasteurization, or the L.reuteri will all be killed.
re: «I tried making it in the instant pot and it was a falure.»
What temperature was the IP set to (or what temp does it choose for the cycle used)? I recommend that people run a test cycle with plain water, and verify that the device stays in about a 95-105°F(35-40.5°C) range (and can be set to do so for 36 hours). I ceased using our not-so-smart pot because its yogurt cycle was too hot, and its “manual” temp cycle would only hold for 4 hours.
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It would be very helpful if we could just have straightforward L. reuteri Yogurt Recipes posted in the actual “Recipes” section of this website in **ONLY** a recipe format without any explanations or discussion. You could put a link under the recipe title to the blog discussions of the whys and wherefores. You could have one recipe posted for each method used: one called “Oven Method,” one called “Instant Pot Method,” “Sous Vide,” etc., as followers have developed these recipes and posted them in various FB discussions. However, the finding of the best recipes is extremely hard and, as a result, we’re all still asking questions on ALL the sites. The sheer volume of questions about the actual process here and in each of the Facebook groups indicates that a more concise “recipe” is warranted. Thanks for all you do, Dr. Davis and Bob Niland!
Jan wrote: «It would be very helpful if we could just have straightforward L. reuteri Yogurt Recipes posted in the actual “Recipes” section of this website in **ONLY** a recipe format without any explanations or discussion.»
I think that will happen when more is learned about optimizing the whole process. Dr. Davis, for example, is working on getting some actual culture studies done, so we can be sure that the substrates, amendments and hours are ideal.
The recipe itself has evolved over time, particularly at my house, where most of my batches have been unique in some fashion or other (one finishing within the hour is the first based on milk+inulin only, and not the usual home-made H&H). I’ve changed how I do starter, the temp has shifted, I’ve stopped using potato starch, the inulin has doubled, etc.
re: «You could have one recipe posted for each method used: one called “Oven Method,” one called “Instant Pot Method,” “Sous Vide,” etc.…»
The reactor issue really needs to be discussed separately from the recipe and prep steps. Once you have a scheme or device that can hold ~97°F/36°C for 36 hours, and you have a process for starter, the “recipe” doesn’t need to get into those.
re: «…as a result, we’re all still asking questions on ALL the sites. The sheer volume of questions about the actual process here and in each of the Facebook groups indicates that a more c»
Oh, I agree, and that’s why I posted the article on the ad-hoc (light bulb in a cooler) article. Perhaps I can similarly document an upcoming batch, and my next starter batch.
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On my first go round with using the tablets and sous vide, how long should the process take?
danny glusman wrote: «On my first go round with using the tablets and sous vide, how long should the process take?»
Doing a “cold start”, about 36 hours 15 minutes. 36 hours for the ferment itself. The 15 minutes includes:
• pre-warming the sous vide,
• mixing up the dairy substrate & prebiotic fiber,
• crushing the 10 tablets (initial batch only),
• whisking up the final mix,
• bottling and ensconcing in the sous vide,
• setting a smart phone alarm
• waiting,
• drying off bottles, labeling and refrigerating.
If you want to consume it chilled (as I do), that adds more time.
If doing a [re]pasteurization first (as I do), that adds more time.
If using frozen saved starter (as I do), that adds more time. I basically treat it as a 52 hour process, of which less than 20 minutes is actual activity.
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Anyone trying the coconut milk version? I made two batches, the latter with a yogurt from the former as a starter. They went ok, but the yogurt didn’t get thick and I put gelatin. Any hint, experience, whatever? Thank yiu
Tiziano Solignani wrote: «Anyone trying the coconut milk version?»
What specific recipe were you using?
Were I to try it again, I’d use this one:
Daphne’s L-reuteri coconut milk yogurt UPDATED-no muss, no fuss, NOT vegan
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Thank you. I followed the directions I read on the several blog posts on the same matter. Thank for the link with the recipe, I’ll try that.
Hi Bob –
My first attempt here.
Linked below are my customized instructions I copied from doc’s blog and modified since I used raw milk, GOS instead of inulin or sugar, and heat pasteurized to 180 degrees prior to adding the culture to denature the protein, eliminate any random microbes, with the intent of getting a nice and thick consistency from every thing I researched. Unfortunately, that did not result:
https://app.box.com/s/kmerpd0knxbve3jzic8zu0amjenvixmi
As you can see from the photos, there was a clear separation of whey forming at the bottom at ~ 12h. At ~ 15h, the top was a cheesy, tangy consistency and odor, and taking a spoonful to test, tasted the same – like cheese, except very spongy. It actually didn’t taste bad, like a kind a mild cheese. The whey was very mild, unlike the the tarty sourness when I had made kefir before. In fact, I ate almost half of the mixture, but feel a little bloated without adding some lactase as I am lactose intolerant and even though most of the lactase has been converted, I can still “feel” it.
No change thereafter (the timer on the Luvele yogurt make only goes to 24h, then you have to reset).
This seems like a tricky strain, very different from other lactic-acid strains, and I question how consistent it is with different bases (i.e. raw vs. pasteurized milk; goat vs. sheep vs cow, etc.). For example, I purchased this same raw sheep’s milk from the farm that also sells me their raw sheep milk yogurt and their yogurt is extremely viscous and mildly tangy. I have no clue what starter mix they use, however. They ship to me on ice and always in glass jars if you can believe that. Their sheep (and all their livestock, including camels, are all raised organic). You can’t get any better quality milk, IMO. Here’s a link in case others are interested: https://www.millersorganicfarm.com/
Have no clue what to do to get the actual yogurt consistency for the next batch (I have 5 qts remaining). Any all thoughts and advice appreciated!
Mark wrote: «Linked below are my customized instructions…»
Although you pasteurized the bulk substrate, the way the instructions presently read, it appears that the small amount of milk used for the starter was not. Can you clarify?
re: …there was a clear separation of whey forming at the bottom at ~ 12h. At ~ 15h, the top was a cheesy, tangy consistency and odor, and taking a spoonful to test, tasted the same – like cheese, except very spongy.»
How was it at 36h?
I might mention that it’s been my experience that initial batches (made from tablets) are often not as satisfactory as batches made from saved started. My presumption is that the CFU count in saved starter is dramatically higher.
In any event, using saved starter, I’m seeing no serious difference between our goat milk, reconstituted goat milk (from powder), home-mixed half&half, and simply whole milk (this weekend’s experiment, which had a thin wheyish-layer on top, but was nicely thick in the middle).
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Bob –
Answer to your first question:
No, I did not pasteurize the 2 tbsp of milk to make the culture.
Answer to your second question:
At 36h, really no change from 15h (the whey became more sour and the top became more “cheesy”).
Don’t know what to make of this first try. Any suggestion for the second try?
Furthermore, the cheesy top part just became more waxy like it just dried up.
Mark wrote: «…No, I did not pasteurize the 2 tbsp of [raw goat] milk to make the culture.…»
That might have introduced undesired microbes, which even if they didn’t affect this batch all that much, probably made the resulting product iffy to use as starter going forward. We have goats. I’ve tried raw milk once, but when the herd is in milk, we pasteurize. I definitely would never make a fermented food with any sort of raw dairy.
re: «At 36h, really no change from 15h (the whey became more sour and the top became more “cheesy”). … the cheesy top part just became more waxy like it just dried up.»
I had an experimental batch do that, but don’t recall the details. I just mixed it all up and consumed it.
re: «Any suggestion for the second try?»
First batches are often underwhelming for various reasons. Subsequent batches, from saved starter, are usually pretty nice. My inclination would be to start over with tablets, and full-pasteurized everything (except tablets, of course), and reserve quite a bit of it for use as future starter. If you get whey fraction, separate it for that use. Freezing it as ice cubes works (pretty much l my late summer/early fall production was based on frozen whey starter).
Goat milk makes great yogurt. The A1 vs. A2 issue is completely off the table, and if it’s your own herd, issues of additives are also gone.
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I saved some of the whey fraction from the first failed try for reseeding a subsequent batch. By the way, I used raw sheep’s milk, not goat, as I find sheep milk and yogurt to be even more nutritious (more protein and fat) and much richer than goat. I avoid all bovine dairy products as a rule. I wonder if I should add gelatin or HWC? Fingers crossed for the next batch!
Ok, batch #2 resulted in essentially the same despite pasteurizing the 2 tbsp of raw milk which I didn’t do on batch #1. What I found is that the longer it sits (up to the 36h), the less yogurt on top and the more whey forms at the bottom which also gets more sour tasting. Basically, the only salvageable component past 15h is the whey. Any suggestions as to what I can try next?
Mark wrote: «Basically, the only salvageable component past 15h is the whey.»
Why so? When I’ve had batches with marked curd/whey sep, the curds were fine for consumption. And I froze the whey for use as starter.
Which brings me to wanting some clarification. I presume this was another batch started from tablets?
re: «Any suggestions as to what I can try next»
Use the saved whey as starter, at 2 tbsp./qt. (which is what my recipe works out to).
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At ~ 15h, the curds were about 75% of the total qt of raw milk, 25% was whey , and were somewhat tasty, not anything thick like actual yogurt, and a little spongy, but palatable. Going beyond 15h, and, all the way to 36h, the curds literally morphed to a tasteless, limp sponge, where 75% was whey and 25% was the rest.
Yes, the 2nd batch was from another 10 tablets.
Attempt #3 in progress using 2 tbsp of whey starter. Not holding my breath, but we’ll see.
Mark wrote: «…all the way to 36h, the curds literally morphed to a tasteless, limp sponge, where 75% was whey and 25% was the rest.»
That doesn’t sound like an Iron Chef award-winner. As you can see from the current and back traffic on this blog and the Undoctored blog, results vary, esp. for initial batches. Some of this we can put down to this being a non-traditional yogurt, some to being made by people who have never made yogurt before (like me), and some due to unsuspected ingredient or equipment problems.
re: «Attempt #3 in progress using 2 tbsp of whey starter. Not holding my breath, but we’ll see»
File reports. Success is possible.
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Batch #3 update (using 2 tbsp whey liquid from prior failed batches). Well, something rather pleasant: @ ~ only 8h, I actually have something that resembles and tastes more like yogurt. Still a bit runny, so will take it another couple hrs and see what happens. This is the closest to something thus far and is totally edible at this point. I just don’t know if it would have the same benefits as a longer fermentation. Perhaps adding gelatin powder to thicken it next time?
Mark wrote: «Perhaps adding gelatin powder to thicken it next time?»
Someone lately reported thickening with chia seed, but I wasn’t clear on whether whole, ground, or at what point they were added. I’m thinking of trying fresh-ground seed, added prior to [re]pasteurization, in the next batch.
Some caution is needed with thickeners (which are common in commercial so-called yogurts, including GRAS gut wall antagonists like carrageenan and polysorbates). If they aren’t also L.reut chow, they may interfere with the ferment. If they are reut chow, they may not act as thickeners. Some are products we just generally avoid at present, like guar gum.
A finely-divided gelatin or collagen might work.
Arrowroot could be an interesting candidate. Normally, we minimize it in recipes due to being high net carb (which fermentation might neutralize).
But get the basic recipe working first, before exploring this.
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Ok, we’re getting there! Batch #3 results in: Using the whey starter liquid, I let it ferment to 21.5h @ 100 degrees F, as I figured any longer and the yogurt would’ve been too sour from the lactic acid. Surprisingly, using the the whey as opposed to the tablets, there was zero separation of whey and solids this time, and the consistency and taste was not bad, just a little lumpy, but much more creamy and not spongy at all like when I used the tablets. Although not as tasty and thick as the already-made sheep yogurt from the farm, it was a vast improvement from the prior batches. Any thoughts as to how to reduce the lumpiness? Aside from using pure gelatin powder, would you recommend heavy whipped cream? If so, how much of either? Onto Batch #4.
Mark wrote: «I let it ferment to 21.5h…»
Using my spreadsheet from when I last ran the numbers on colony growth (from 10 tablets), you are only up to 4B CFUs in 2 tbsp. saved starter, and 16B CFUs in a ½ cup serving. At the full 36h, these numbers would be 130B(starter) and 512B(serving).
re: «…too sour from the lactic acid.»
Dr. Davis addressed that specific issue in an Undoctored Blog post this week: Is the L. reuteri yogurt too sour?
re: «Surprisingly, using the the whey as opposed to the tablets, there was zero separation of whey and solids this time…»
My guess on follow-up batches is that the starting CFU count is dramatically higher.
re: «Any thoughts as to how to reduce the lumpiness?»
In my case, I don’t really care, because the final product is hand-stirred into a smoothie, so I actually don’t want it too firm. But my general non-expert impression is you get smoother/firmer by making sure the starter is well whisked (not stick-blendered) into the prepared substrate. Using more prebiotic fiber seems to help as well. Further insights may be expected as experiments continue.
re: «…would you recommend heavy whipped cream?»
That seems to add firmness, but there are a couple of considerations. Many HWCs on the market are contaminated with added emulsifiers that we avoid. Cream is also expensive, particularly if organic or at least unadulterated (and can you even get A2 cream yet in the US?). I’ve switched to just using whole milk, because it works for our needs.
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>>> Mark: “Any thoughts as to how to reduce the lumpiness? ”
I have found that aging in the refrigerator smooths the consistency of the yogurt. (I have some that has aged over a month. ) Also, once you open a jar and disturb the contents you ,will get some separation of whey, which you can just pour out (I do). My recipe is slightly different in that I don’t use any prebiotic and only ferment for 12 to 14 hours at 100* F.
So far I have cultured up from a single Bio Gastrus tablet 4 times. Every time so far, the starter batch has had quite a bit of whey separation, and takes about 36 to 48 hours to ferment. I have gone as far as 13 generations from a starter batch. Each generation is usually 3 or 4 quarts using organic half and half – so quite a bit of aging before I get around to consuming it.
Ray wrote: «I have found that aging in the refrigerator smooths the consistency of the yogurt.»
Unless you freeze it, the bacteria reportedly keep reproducing until all the substrate is exhausted, just at a lower rate. For product made to the program recipe, this likely places some shelf life limit on the completed product (as does the risk of random environmental contamination). The consequences of substrate exhaustion are not something I have a guess on. Might be unpalatable at a minimum.
If you freeze it, some physical effects can occur, but the bacteria just go dormant until the temperature rises again. This is why it’s possible to make batches that are just starter, cubed and frozen (which is what I do).
re: «Also, once you open a jar and disturb the contents you, will get some separation of whey, which you can just pour out (I do).»
It can be used as starter.
re: «My recipe is slightly different in that I don’t use any prebiotic and only ferment for 12 to 14 hours at 100* F.»
Is this starting from 10 tabs, 1 tab, or some amount of saved starter? In any case, the CFUs at 12-14h are surprisingly low (on paper), depending on portion size. Also, there’s apt to be a lot of lactose remaining, for those concerned about either net carbs or lactose per se.
Anyway, thanks for the report. It’s useful to see what effect recipe variations have. I just made a small batch with crushed chia seed added, to see if some thickening might obtain. Not really, as it turned out. It was just the usual consistency — with chia seeds in it (and mostly near the top).
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Batch #4 update: This time used 4 tbsp GOS probiotic, 4tbsp whey liquid. Result: Improved consistency and taste – even at 15h. Could not resist sampling during the full 36h fermentation which resulted in a more lactic acid and tarty taste. My conclusion thus far: using the tablets is only good for getting enough whey liquid to actually make a real yogurt on subsequent batches as the first batch will be what I previously described.
On a side note, am concerned with 2 issues with respect to inoculating with L. reuteri. For all its pro benefits, there are a couple of cons as studies have shown:
May not be good for those with histamine intolerance.
May cause weight gain in some people.
Thoughts?
Mark wrote: «My conclusion thus far: using the tablets is only good for getting enough whey liquid to actually make a real yogurt on subsequent batches…»
I personally haven’t kept sufficiently detailed records on my batches to disagree with you on that. But it has been my experience that subsequent batch (from saved yogurt or whey fraction) tend to be more satisfactory. Once Dr. Davis has some culture study results back, we may have a clearer picture.
re: «…2 issues with respect to inoculating with L. reuteri. For all its pro benefits, there are a couple of cons as studies…»
Can you provide some leads to the reports (such as DOIs)? My first question would be: what strains of L.reut?
As things are learned, I expect to see encouragements and cautions get posted, for example:
Who should NOT do the L. reuteri yogurt?
I was wrong: Young people SHOULD obtain L. reuteri
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Bob: “Is this starting from 10 tabs, 1 tab, or some amount of saved starter? In any case, the CFUs at 12-14h are surprisingly low (on paper), depending on portion size. Also, there’s apt to be a lot of lactose remaining, for those concerned about either net carbs or lactose per se.”
When I make a starter, I go from 1 tablet and ferment about 48 hours. A good (or at least working) technique is to get a pint jar and fill it halfway with milk (not half and half) and screw on the cap. Place the jar & milk in a covered pan and bring to a boil. Let cool to 100*F then add a crushed tablet directly to the sterile milk. Incubate for 24 hours at 100*F. O;en the jar and fill it with sterile milk and ferment for another 24 hours at 100*f. At this point I usually have a good portion of solids with significant whey separation. I put this in the refrigerator and use it as a starter. A couple of tablespoons of this in a quart jar of half and half will usually ferment out (solid) in about 12 hours.
For subsequent generations, I use about 2 tablespoons of the previous generation (from a freshly opened bottle) into a quart of half and half. This too ferments out solid in about 12 hours.
Hi from Copenhagen, Denmark. I am considering making this l. reuteri yogurt with pasteurized goats milk and the Gastrus tablets in my Luvele yogurt maker. I just looked at Biogaia’s site, they are referring to safe intake levels of l. reuteri stating “clinical data 100 million CFU per day has been chosen as a safe and efficient dose of L. reuteri”, https://www.biogaia.com/probiotic-health/lactobacillus-reuteri-strains/, so I am wondering if trillions CFU dosages from the this reuteri yogurt is safe, despite being transient, if it can upset colonization of other probiotic strains in the gut and create a harmful imbalance ?
Ole wrote: «I am considering making this l. reuteri yogurt with pasteurized goats milk…»
That works. I’ve done it with frozen & reconstituted (powdered) goat milk.
re: «…in my Luvele yogurt maker.»
What temperature does it use for the yogurt cycle, or can you set it to arbitrary temperatures?
re: «…100 million CFU per day has been chosen as a safe and efficient dose…»
Keep in mind that Biogaia® is working with a different set of objectives and constraints than we are. They are selling a product for all ages, on random diets and in diverse reproductive and health situations. They also need to have repeat sales, or there’s no business model.
re: «…so I am wondering if trillions CFU dosages from the this reuteri yogurt is safe…»
Valid question: Dr. Davis ponders that as well, most recently here: I was wrong: Young people SHOULD obtain L. reuteri, which references the earlier Who should NOT do the L. reuteri yogurt? article.
I did a quick search today, and so far I have not been able to find any trials that have established an upper tolerance limit for L.reuteri. This species has been studied for over 20 years now, at daily doses up to 50B, in some at-risk populations (e.g. HIV positive). And that’s in IRB-approved human trials. Followers of the blogs who are making the yogurt likely have been consuming much more than that for nearly a year now.
re: «…despite being transient, if it can upset colonization of other probiotic strains in the gut and create a harmful imbalance?»
Upsetting an existing imbalance might actually become the goal, except, that as you observe, the half-life of L.reut in the human gut is pretty brief (days to a week or so).
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I have been making L.reuteri yogurt for about a month and have experienced wonderful effects after taking about 6-8oz a day. Thank you for the excellent articles detailing how to make it.
I do have a couple of concerns:
I have a friend with type-2 diabetes who has been taking 1 cup a day and after a few weeks has reported that his glucose levels have increased (not sure how much).
I also have another friend who has been taking it and has reported that his prostate is unusually enlarged (doctor checked) for his age.
Doing a bit more digging I found some research that elevated levels of oxytocin are related to enlargement of the prostate:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/28130436/
And, for certain subjects with diabetes, an increase in blood glucose levels:
https://academic.oup.com/endo/article/155/11/4189/2422458
What is your opinion on the safety of daily doses of l.reuteri (hundreds of billions of extra bacteria a day) because of the 2-4x increase in oxytocin levels it produces?
As I understand, the bacteria will colonize the intestines after taking the yogurt for a while. Should the dosage of yogurt be reduced after the bacteria has colonized the gut so that oxytocin is not spiking too much and potentially causing the effects I mentioned above?
Thanks again!
Marco wrote: «I have a friend with type-2 diabetes who has been taking 1 cup a day and after a few weeks has reported that his glucose levels have increased (not sure how much).»
Can you provide some context on that? What stage of T2D is this. What else is he doing about the T2D? I don’t think this exploratory yogurt is necessarily a T2D adjunct when consumed in isolation, although the appetite effect might well be useful in unwinding a high carb diet.
In my view, T2D is an optional ailment, a largely predictable biologic consequence of a chronic metabolic insult (a full-time moderate to high glycemic consensus-style diet). T2D is trivially avoid by diet. It is usually possible to slow, arrest and reverse it via diet (to the extent that any developed complications are themselves reversible).
re: «I also have another friend who has been taking it and has reported that his prostate is unusually enlarged (doctor checked) for his age.»
Had the prostate been assessed both before and after the yogurt? And again, what diet? In any event, BPH is one thing, and prostate cancer (PC) is another. Here’s a 2018-09 survey of connections:
WJCO: Oxytocin and cancer: An emerging link
On PC in particular, it ended up concluding (emphasis added): “Clearly, additional studies are needed to elucidate the involvement of oxytocin and oxytocin receptor in progression or regression of human prostate cancer.”
re: «…I found some research…»
Rodents. Pay-walled. Sigh. So, hard to say.
re: «…certain subjects with diabetes, an increase in blood glucose levels…»
Mice again, but at least full-text open-access this time. Results were all over the place. Apart from mice generally, and specific strains of lab mice, not being people, a major problem with most rodent studies is that lab rodent diets are junk — high in frank sugars, junk grains and adverse fats. I wasn’t quickly able to discover how these were fed (and it’s not in the Supplement document).
re: «What is your opinion on the safety of daily doses of l.reuteri (hundreds of billions of extra bacteria a day) because of the 2-4x increase in oxytocin levels it produces?»
I personally don’t have one, but continue to personally consume the yogurt. If any black swans arise, I will pay attention to them.
re: «As I understand, the bacteria will colonize the intestines after taking the yogurt for a while.»
Got a cite for that? My understanding is that re-colonization from probiotics generally, may occur, but is slow, and may not occur at all with these L.reut strains. Half-life in the gut appears to be days, to a couple of weeks at most. If you stop the yogurt, they’ll soon be a distinct minority in your microbiome, and may even revert to extinct.
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Hi Bob, I am the friend with Diabetes. Thanks for taking the time to answer questions. Before getting on the bad side of the yogurt, I can attest that the psychological effects of the yogurt are incredible, i was extremely happy when taking it, and I am trying to find the correct dosage so it is not an issue. However, glucose and prostate issues are making me a bit concern of the side effects.
With diet, exercise and medicine, my blood glucose was pretty well controlled. Fasting ~100 mg/ml. When i started taking the yogurt I noticed a slight increase for weeks 1 and 2, roughly 115-125.
On week 3 my BG spike to 150. Right after that I had to travel abroad, and it took 3 days for my BG to drop again to the 120 range. Came back from my trip a week later and taking the yogurt for 3 days, BG climbed from 120 to 160 again. Stop taking the yogurt and slowly comes down.
All the theory out there says it should reduce BG, however the mice experiment shows that is not. There is another experiment on dogs that had the same result. Couple of theories. One is that glucagon is increased as well, thus neglecting the positive effects. The other one is leptin connection (which i probably do not understand enough to explain).
Again, at least to me, the experiment was valid because I was able to run on and off the issue by eating or not eating the yogurt.
Regarding the prostate, this happened to my dad. He was taking 1/2 cup a day for 2 weeks. One night he couldn;t pee. Long story short he ended in the hospital with an enlarged prostate. He is home now with a cat and a bag. I do not know his health state prior to the yogurt, but certainly the only change in his regime was the yogurt. He might have had an enlarge prostate and this just accelerated the problem? Possible.
A friend of mine, he has been doing yogurt and taking it prior to lifting weights. He mentioned yesterday he feels something in his behind, he will get it checked and I will report. As far as i know he is healthy, and again, only change in his diet is the yogurt.
Hope this clarify,
Polo wrote: «With diet, exercise and medicine, my blood glucose was pretty well controlled. Fasting ~100 mg/ml.»
Is that mg/mL, mg/dL or perhaps mmol/L? 100mg/mL would be 1mg/dL, which is unlikely.
If you have been following the Undoctored or 2014+ Wheat Belly program, you probably know that the target for FBG is 60-90mg/dL, and that if caught in a timely manner, T2D med use can be found to be unneeded, or at least minimized. If you haven’t been following the program, other culprits abound.
And are these readings before any meal at any time of day? The more I interact with people tracking BG, the more I’m detecting that circadian effects can result in unusually high readings in the AM. I imagine that you have that fully characterized, but wanted to rule it out as a confounder.
re: «When i started taking the yogurt I noticed a slight increase for weeks 1 and 2, roughly 115-125.»
Other (unlikely) possibilities that I’d like to rule out are:
• incomplete fermentation (excess residual sugars), and
• responses to dairy products generally.
re: «He might have had an enlarge prostate and this just accelerated the problem?»
Or it might have been coincidental, or something in the dairy, or a problem with the ferment, etc. As a contrary anecdote, I know someone with BPH, using the yogurt, and who has seen nothing similar. Indeed, these comments today are the first reports I recall seeing (on either blog or on the subscription site) for either a BG provocation or BPH antagonism.
For either, if relief is obtained by discontinuing the yogurt, then do so. Alternatively, if other diet/lifestyle changes were made recently, perhaps unwind them all, and challenge them individually.
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On the BG issue, I was reminded to also ask about portion sizes.
Dr. Davis suggests no more than ½ cup/day. Personally, I use ¼. An excess amount might explain BG elevation.
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Can you help me find the unmodified potato starch or glucose? I am hung up on that step.
Thanks!
Terese Gainer wrote: «an you help me find the unmodified potato starch or glucose?»
Are you planning dairy or non-dairy yogurt?
For dairy yogurt, prebiotic fiber, such as powdered inulin, may be all that’s needed. I presently use 2 tbsp./qt. of NOW brand.
I’ve stopped using potato starch for yogurt, but what I had been using (and still use for other purposes) is Bob’s Red Mill Unmodified Potato Starch, available in most grocery stores these days. Actual glucose can be had in so-called health food stores.
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Thank you so much! I iwill keep you posted on the results.
Is there a particular type of intermittent fasting you would recommend? (16:8 , 18:6. 23:1). Just wonderin’
Michael Maldonado wrote: «Is there a particular type of intermittent fasting you would recommend? (16:8 , 18:6. 23:1).»
There’s a short discussion on page 342 of Undoctored. What’s mentioned there I take to be 15:9 or 18:6 as starter examples. The discussion implies that the meal to skip is the evening meal (which is what I do, consistent with my reading of the circadian tea leaves).
As with ketosis, IF is a tool in the box for limited-term use. There might be a case for an extended fast a few times a year, but it’s not part of the program. There is this on the blog:
Assisted Fasting With MCT Oil
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Not reuteri, but another probiotic: lactobacillus sakei for sinusitis. See:
https://lactobacto.com/2018/12/27/sinusitis-success-stories/#more-8219
Apparently a lot of people are having success curing chronic sinusitis by smearing kimchi juice in their nostrils. It seems that the sinusitis is due to disbyosis in your naso-pharyngeal area and the l. sakei is a keynote species that resets the microbiome. Also there is a suggestion that the l.sakei prefers garlic so you should either ferment garlic cloves or add them when making sauerkraut or other fermented vegetables.
No idea whether it works but as I’ve got a head cold I can’t shift along with post-nasal drip I’ll give it a try and report back.
Stuart wrote: «…lactobacillus sakei for sinusitis.»
Thanks for the link.
Every body surface and orifice has its own microbiome, and the sinus is no exception. The program just hasn’t got there yet.
I personally already think that most (but not all) modern water treatment is a net hazard, and bathing/showering in water loaded with non-native halogens is likely a dermal and nasal microbiome disaster, as is that same water with even more added toxins for use in swimming pools and hot tubs.
Who knew snorting kimchi would become a thing.
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Bob Niland wrote:
“Who knew snorting kimchi would become a thing.”
Well when I tried snorting Coke the bubbles made me sneeze ? Maybe more luck with kimchi.
Mighty fast on the draw there Bob, in fact so fast that when I clicked on the link WordPress didn’t show your reply even after multiple refreshes. Same problem with my posts and took a long time to send the “Confirm Follow” emails.
Stuart wrote: «…so fast that when I clicked on the link WordPress didn’t show your reply…»
Thanks for confirming what I’ve suspected ever since the WP “enhancements” some time last year: the comments are being served out in a very lackadaisical fashion; the emails, however, are going out instantly, and consequently contain links that won’t work for some random amount of time.
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I’ve posted this on the FB WB page, but perhaps you can answer. I wrote to BioGaia to find out if their Protectis was different than Gastrus. I would like to know what you and Dr. Davis say..
Their reply:
The difference between Protectis and Gastrus is that Gastrus also contains the Gastrus-strain L. reuteri ATCC PTA 6475.
Regarding making yoghurt, unfortunately L. reuteri Gastrus is not suitable for usage in yoghurts. For, L. reuteri the gut is an ”appropriate” environment and even if L. reuteri grows in milk to a certain extent, it is not the most beneficial environment for the strain. Below please find or official comment regarding usage of L. reuteri in dairy products. I hope you find it informative.
L reuteri Gastrus is not suitable for production of dairy products or fermentation of vegetables.
L. reuteri grows to a certain extent in milk but does not give flavor or consistency to the product.
L. reuteri is a probiotic bacteria of human origin that has evolved through the evolution to live in symbiosis with its host, in this case humans. It thrives in the human GI tract and exerts its effect there.
Dairy cultures used for production of yoghurt, cheese or sour cream, like Streptococcus thermopilus and Lactobacillus bulgaricus are specifically developed to create good flavor and creamy consistency to a yoghurt. One Lactobacillus may differ from another Lactobacillus like an apple from a cow and have completely different effects.
When used in dairy products as a probiotic supplement, L. reuteri is preferably added after fermentation and only for its probiotic effect and you cannot expect higher levels than actually added and therefor will be better off taking the tablet as such.
Dorothy Friesen wrote: «The difference between Protectis and Gastrus is that Gastrus also contains the Gastrus-strain L. reuteri ATCC PTA 6475.»
Yes, the Protectis® bacterium is Lactobacillus reuteri DSM 17938. There are other non-bacterial ingredient differences between Gastrus® and Protectis, depending on the specific product and region.
DSM 17938 alone may or may not provide all the benefits sought. I don’t think we know yet.
re: «L reuteri Gastrus is not suitable for production of dairy products or fermentation of vegetables.»
This might hinge on the definition of “yogurt” under statute or just as a term of art.
In the US for example, per the FDA, a commercial yogurt must comply with 21CFR131.200, which requires that two completely different bacteria (Lactobacillus bulgaricus and Streptococcus thermophilus) be dominant, and there’s a specification for “…titratable acidity of not less than 0.9 percent…” which the recipe here might not meet (due to the extended ferment time).
As a term of art, CSU tells us that for conventional yogurts “The mixture is incubated for 4-7 hours at 105-115°F.” The recipe here so far appears to peak at 10°F lower and 6.5× longer.
For all these reasons, a Gastrus® yogurt is unlikely to be appearing in the dairy cooler of your local TrendyMart, and if it ever does, it probably won’t be called yogurt. It’s a fermented dairy-like food, that presently has to be home-made, and which we informally call yogurt.
re: «L. reuteri grows to a certain extent in milk but does not give flavor or consistency to the product.»
Using a conventional yogurt process (hot, short, no extenders), yup, that’s the likely result.
re: «L. reuteri is a probiotic bacteria of human origin that has evolved through the evolution to live in symbiosis with its host, in this case humans. It thrives in the human GI tract and exerts its effect there.»
That neatly fails to address what the natural reservoir is for these strains, nor what expectations we should have for [re]colonization. But I’m sure their legal team signed off on it.
re: «When used in dairy products as a probiotic supplement, L. reuteri is preferably added after fermentation and only for its probiotic effect and you cannot expect higher levels than actually added and therefor will be better off taking the tablet as such.»
Translation: that’s our business model here. Don’t move our cheese. Meanwhile, per their 2018-10-24 Interim Management Statement: “Geographically, growth was strong across all three regions, EMEA, Asia Pacific and the Americas. It is worth noting that sales increased significantly in the USA and the rollout of BioGaia Gastrus tablets continues with good growth.” It would be interesting to know the breakdown of those US sales, and I wonder if BioGaia does.
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Who would have guessed they would suggest taking more tablets rather than growing our on billions of CFUs.. ( LOL )
GDGatz wrote: «Who would have guessed they would suggest taking more tablets…»
Well, what we’re doing here is likely well beyond the evidence base that they built in support of approvals for on-label use of the product. And that’s in addition to the challenges that would arise from selling or supporting the sales of a commercial fermented food product, or heck, just naming it.
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Got some dental pain within a few hours after consuming first batch, seemed like some bacteria were running wild on my teeth. Teeth never ever feel that way so I wonder if I had a contamination.
Only fermented 14 hours, using the original recipe. Made in an instapot, sanitized quite a bit but I wonder if there was a contamination that caused this or if anyone else experienced similar symptoms.
Ben wrote: «Got some dental pain within a few hours after consuming first batch…»
I don’t recall a report of that sort to date. Also, for reference, the disclosed side effects for Gastrus® don’t presently include any dental issues (but could include tongue and throat rash, also not so far reported for the yogurt).
re: «…seemed like some bacteria were running wild on my teeth. … Only fermented 14 hours…»
My guess would be unfermented saccharides (e.g. lactose) feeding pre-existing tooth or gum bacteria.
Based on some numbers I ran last year, the concentration of L.reuteri in a few tablespoons of yogurt doesn’t even get back to the starting 1B CFUs until hour 18. So a 14 hour batch is going to be low in L.reut, and still contain ample lactose (and any other added saccharide substrate).
re: «Made in an instapot, sanitized quite a bit but I wonder if there was a contamination that caused this or if anyone else experienced similar symptoms.»
That’s also possible. This is part of why I [re]pasteurize everything but the starter, and with the whisk in the pot during the boil.
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Hmm I eat other yogurt regularly without any of the same dental pain. Could be coincidence but I doubt it.
I also repasturized the half and half to a temp of 180. I guess my one concern of contamination would be from the instantpot, despite scrubbing and running multiple steam cycles there is a residual chili smell.
Ben wrote: «I eat other yogurt regularly without any of the same dental pain.»
Can I ask what diet and lifestyle program you have been following, and for how long? (I can’t make assumptions about the author of any given comment.)
In general, dental issues of all kinds simply disappear for people following the WB/Undoctored programs, and this has been my personal experience. The program hasn’t even had to develop a specific oral health focus. So yours is a curious result we might explore further.
re: «I also repasturized the half and half to a temp of 180.»
That would rule that out as a problem. What were you using for any extender, such as inulin?
re: «I guess my one concern of contamination would be from the instantpot, despite scrubbing and running multiple steam cycles there is a residual chili smell.»
I’m going to conjecture that although some odor might be present, no concerning lifeforms remain after those cycles. By the way, what temp is the IP running at during the yogurt ferment?
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Used inulin powder. I think next batch I’ll repasteurize with the inulin this time.
I also used a coffee grinder to ground up the probiotics. I attempted to sanitize but I can’t submerge it in water or put it in the oven.
Dental pain is weird bc I never had it before and I can’t attribute it to anything I’ve done new other than yogurt. It’s almost completely resolved after a few days. L reuteri(not sure if strain used) was protective against tooth decay
Ben wrote: «I think next batch I’ll repasteurize with the inulin this time.»
I do that with initial batches just to improve sterility for use as starter. I do it with production batches (from that starter) just to reduce variables.
re: «I also used a coffee grinder to ground up the probiotics.»
Speaking of variables … I don’t recall hearing that being used before, and have no instant insights on benefits or hazards thereof. Pure speculation, but it might over-heat the tablets. When I go back to tabs, I grind them in a mortar and pestle. I’ll seen reports of people simply mashing them in the bubble pack with a mallet. What microbes live in coffee grinders? Beats me, and normally we don’t care, because the coffee brewing process amounts to pasteurization.
re: «Dental pain is weird bc I never had it before and I can’t attribute it to anything I’ve done new other than yogurt. It’s almost completely resolved after a few days. L reuteri(not sure if strain used) was protective against tooth decay»
As you probably know, what appears to be tooth pain may well not be a dental carrie per se. It might also be provoking of an inflamed region when gum disease is present. It can be a simple mechanical crack in a tooth, or loose filling allowing things to trouble a nerve. It can be simple temperature change. But if you can re-challenge it at will with the yogurt (alone, and at varying temps), something about the yogurt (or its ingredient) has to be suspect #1. If it takes more than a few minutes to resolve, my guess wouldn’t be temp. Other explanations may be lurking.
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Probably so.
Interesting to note I haven’t experienced similar pain when chewing the probiotic tablet, which would have likely been at a higher dosage of l reuteri given I only let the first batch go 14 hours and only a few tablespoons of the yogurt.
I’ll try grinding the tabswithin the package next batch and also repasturize with the inulin powder.
Hi Bob,
I usually make my own youghurt at home. I just wrapped up in blanket and leave for 24hr. My question is, can i wrapped it in blanket like i have always done? Or i should follow your method of temerature control?
Thank you
Zahra wrote: «I usually make my own youghurt at home.»
Keep in mind that “yogurt” is just a term of convenience here, because this fermented food has no specific descriptive name yet. Compared to typical or FDA-defined yogurts, this is:
• completely different cultures, of course
• relying to some extent on added substrate
• incubated 13°F(7°C) cooler
• incubated 6.5× longer
re: «I just wrapped up in blanket and leave for 24hr.»
Is 36h going to be a problem for you? I’m familiar with your technique, because we’ve made traditional yogurt that way.
re: «My question is, can i wrapped it in blanket like i have always done?»
What temperature range does your setup maintain? These L.reuteri strains appear to reproduce over a range from above freezing to 122°F, with a peak around 97°F. I suspect that going much below 95°F risks contamination by opportunistic environmental microbes. Going above 120°F risks killing the bacteria.
I’ve made it in a not-so-smart pot that ran as high as 115°F, and I’m much happier with the results from my ad-hoc bulb-in-a-cooler setup that runs 97-101 or so. Dr. Davis was making it by pulsing his oven from time to time.
It doesn’t take sophisticated equipment to make this fermented food, but it’s probably pretty important to know how your equipment behaves. There are enough potential antagonists to the process that we don’t want an unknown temperature to be one of them. Perhaps set up a batch of water, and see what happens over 36h.
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Maybe I’m missing something, but why make the yogurt? Why not just take the probiotic? I just purchased it and they’re chewable tablets. Citrus flavored. Thank you.
One tablet contains a claimed 200 million CFU of the desired bacteria.
A half cup of yogurt made with the tablets probably contains billions of CFU.
You can continue to make new batches of yogurt indefinitely under ideal conditions
without using more than the tablets used to make the first batch.
Thanks! I get it now…the yogurt is just a “home” for the bacteria to flourish. I just made my first batch and it should be “done” at 8pm tonight! I’m excited and nervous.
Laurie wrote: «Why not just take the probiotic?»
Gregory has already made the point about the relative CFUs, and the economic consideration.
Another issue is the metabolic byproducts. The tablets contain nil. The yogurt is rich in them, particularly short-chain fatty acids.
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Got it! Thank you so much.
200 million CFUs may sound like a lot, but most probiotic preparations are measured in the billions and the gut microbiome in total in the trillions. For example, this product gives you 32 billion CFUs per capsule, including 200million reuteri (probably not the strain we want) and 60 capsules for $A30 = ~$US21:
https://www.chemistwarehouse.com.au/buy/76272/life-space-broad-spectrum-probiotic-60-capsules
Note that this is less than the cost to buy 30 tablets of Gastrus ie it’s less than half the cost per dose plus they give you an extra 31+ billion beneficial bacteria. This raises the question: if that company can do it so cheaply why can’t BioGaia supply more than 200,000 CFUs for the high price they’re charging? My guess is that they don’t want to give a higher dose because it might colonise your GI tract and you would no longer have to take their tablets. But then, I’m a cynic.
BioGaia has patents on their strains, which probably has something to do with their pricing.
There are some NaturesWay products with L. reuteri that are less than $20 for 90 caps.
Stuart wrote: «…why can’t BioGaia supply more than 200,000 CFUs for the high price they’re charging?»
Well, they are selling a product for people on random diets, in unknown health situations, possibly some at-risk health situations. They also have to test and get approval for whatever dose they want to sell. They also need to recover their R&D.
We’re doing this exogenously-fermented high-CFU exploration in a specific nutritional context. Frankly, we need to be grateful that a product exists at any price. Furthermore, done thoughtfully, one US$30 box of Gastrus® is enough for a one decade supply of yogurt (the patent runs out then).
Gregory wrote: «There are some NaturesWay products with L. reuteri that are less than $20 for 90 caps.»
Yes, but that’s Lactobacillus reuteri UALre-16. Net benefits not known to me. Suitability for use in fermented foods equally a mystery. Strains matter.
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Re: Yes, but that’s Lactobacillus reuteri UALre-16. Net benefits not known to me. Suitability for use in fermented foods equally a mystery. Strains matter.
I understand the preference for the BioGaia product. I was just responding to the reference to another product that contained non preferred ( for us ) L.reuteri.
Gregory wrote: «I was just responding to the reference to another product that contained non preferred ( for us ) L.reuteri.»
And I was just reinforcing that distinction for bystanders. You are likely on top of the situation.
Dr. Davis has specifically discussed:
What a difference strain can make
It may well turn out that one or more common L.reuteri strains offer similar, or even superior results vs. the strains in Gastrus®. Which those might be is not yet apparent. If they are strains in a commercial probiotic, we might at least be able to assume they aren’t hazardous.
People are welcome to run their own fermented food experiments with probiotic-as-culture. But if anyone wants to try the exploratory yogurt-like product here, it has a very specific starter culture, at present available in only a single product from a single brand.
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Gregory wrote: “BioGaia has patents on their strains, which probably has something to do with their pricing.”
I’m sure it has everything to do with their pricing since the patents give them a monopoly on that strain. Though how the authorities can give an exclusive patent over a naturally occurring organism is baffling. You might as well issue a blanket patent over cows and sheep. It’s not as if BioGaia had genetically engineered or bred this strain – AIUI it was isolated from human breast milk.
BTW I looked at the Nature’s Way product you referenced and although it has 90 caps they are only 5 billion CFUs per cap and contain two other strains in addition to the reuteri. Nowhere does it give the breakdown between species or the reuteri CFUs, despite prominently featuring it in the product name. My guess is that the reuteri numbers are quite low. Also please note that Australian prices are inclusive of 10% sales tax so to compare to US prices you need to knock off 1/11th. Anyway I wasn’t suggesting that product as an alternative to Gastrus (although it does make a palatable yoghurt), just using it as an illustration that the 200,000 CFUs in the Gastrus product is not due to cost issues.
Bob Niland wrote: “Well, they (BioGaia) are selling a product for people on random diets, in unknown health situations, possibly some at-risk health situations. They also have to test and get approval for whatever dose they want to sell. They also need to recover their R&D.”
Get approval? I seriously doubt that since it is sold as a nutritional supplement and I’d think that reuteri is classified as GRAS given it naturally occurs in humans and is widely used in probiotic products. Albeit a different strain but most of the other strains used have never been tested for safety and efficacy in clinical trials.
I have no objection to them charging a higher price to recover the cost of their research and clinical trial. My objections are that the absurdly low amount of CFUs is unlikely to provide any benefits in humans (IIRC that was reported here) and that they could quite easily provide far more CFUs without putting a significant dent in their profit margin. Although reuteri seem to be slower growing than other species like l. acidophilus, the ease with which we can proliferate it in our kitchens suggests that it isn’t that hard on an industrial scale. Anyway, in pharmaceuticals it is common for the cost of the active ingredient bought in bulk to be a small fraction of the manufacturing cost, outweighed by the cost of other ingredients, packaging materials and the labour and overhead. I’d bet that a tablet with 1 million CFUs would cost little more than the existing one.
Gregory wrote: «Though how the authorities can give an exclusive patent over a naturally occurring organism is baffling.»
My recollection is that they did make one gene edit in at least one of the strains.
But sure, we could argue whether patents per se are rational in a civilized culture, or whether patents on self-replicating things are oxymoronic, or whether patents on lifeforms are just plain nuts, but all of that is out of scope for this corner of the internet. We’re just trying to figure out how to optimally exploit such resources as are available on terms within reach.
re: «Get approval? I seriously doubt that since it is sold as a nutritional supplement…»
Swedish company. World-wide product. Requirements vary, but even in the US, there are some minimum standards for supplements. Furthermore, there’s liability, and if there are unknown hazards at doses above what you tested, you’re surely not going to market products for random higher use levels.
re: «My objections are that the absurdly low amount of CFUs is unlikely to provide any benefits in humans…»
There is a science base for some benefits, for the bacterial tablet alone, at the label dose. What we’re doing here is different than that. Biogaia may well end up offering a higher dose product, and/or a fermented product (or supporting producers who desire to), but I haven’t any insight into that.
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Oops, my bad. I was writing from memory and put 200,000 CFUs for the Gastrus when actually it’s 200,000,000, although only 100 million of that is the super-duper strain for which the benefits are claimed. However my point still stands – the cost of making a 1 Billion CFU product won’t be significantly greater than the current 200 million.
My 1st batch turned out great! I bought a Cuisinart Yogurt Maker and it was amazing. I bought the inulin and the Bio-Gastrus that Dr. Davis mentions. I used cold half and half since we eat low carb high fat. Using cold dairy did not affect the yogurt. I ran the 12 hour fermentation cycle and the cooling cycle ran over night. Well worth the money for the yogurt maker. No muss, no fuss! I put a couple tablespoons aside (in the fridge) to seed my next batch and the rest in a separate container to use which I also stored in the refrigerator of course. I used it in my smoothie this morning and it tasted great. The only thing I noticed is that I’ve had a sour stomach all day but I have a very sensitive stomach so I just may need to adjust to the change in probiotic.
Regarding the histamine and obesity risks, you had asked if I could could provide some leads to the reports.
The specific strains vary in these links I’m seeding, but some specifically mention the two in question.
L. reuteri and histamine issues:
This blog reports mixed reactions; in some, the histamine response is anti-inflammatory and in others, pro-inflammatory:
https://epiphanyasd.blogspot.com/2016/09/histamine-reaction-to-bio-gaia-gastrus.html
Here are the actual studies:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22384111
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2118872/
This is an excellent resource that examines the benefits and potential drawbacks and backs it up with research:
https://selfhacked.com/blog/l-reuteri/
L. reuteri and obesity:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21829158
Mark wrote: «…leads to the reports.»
Thanks.
re: «L. reuteri and obesity:»
Here’s a link to the open-access full-text on that:
IJO: Obesity-associated gut microbiota is enriched in Lactobacillus reuteri and depleted in Bifidobacterium animalis and Methanobrevibacter smithii
It’s hard to say what that says, as they didn’t zoom down to strains (even in the Supplement document). This was based on stool samples from relatively random French subjects. Diets and supplements were neither controlled nor recorded, and thus presumably standard-for-France diets. I’m going to guess that the Lactobacillus reuteri detected were highly unlikely to be ATCC PTA 6475, and unlikely to be DSM 17938.
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I’d add that if reuteri cause obesity and the prevalence has dropped from 30-40% of the population in the 60s to 10-20% today, why weren’t there a lot more obese people in the 60s? Anyone who can remember the 60s will tell you that morbidly obese adults were rare and morbidly obese children virtually non-existent apart from hormonally-diseased kids. When I was a kid we were all skinny as rails and I don’t recall ever seeing an obese kid in primary (grade) school. Even kids that were considered “fat” then wouldn’t get a second look today. In high school out of 5-600 students you could count the fat kids on one hand.
If you look at any photo of street scenes from the 60s what strikes you is how thin everyone looks. Mike Eades makes this point in this post:
https://proteinpower.com/drmike/2008/10/29/changing-perceptions-of-obesity/
Mike says: “Although I was never much of a fan as a kid, my folks loved the Jackie Gleason show. Jackie reveled in his obesity, and even went by the monicker The Fat Man. He was thought of at the time as incredibly obese. Take a look.
(YouTube video)
Amazing, isn’t it? Again, you wouldn’t notice him in a crowd today.”
Unfortunately the YouTube links don’t seem to work anymore, but you can find similar clips of Gleason in his 1950s show The Honeymooners.
So where was the epidemic of obesity in the 60s with their higher levels of reuteri?
I have made three batches of the yogurt with the organic half and half and they have each turned out thick and delicious. However, I have noticed my stomach making lots of gurgling sounds, reminiscent of when I would eat Dairy Queen ice cream and have noticed some bloating as well. Is this due perhaps to the half and half? I do not have an upset stomach. I’m just wondering if I should skip the dairy and try the coconut milk recipe instead. Thanks for any feedback someone might share.
Anyone familiar with GcMAF “Bravo” yogurt?
https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/modern-diseases/shifting-medical-paradigm-gcmaf-raw-milk/
Mark wrote: «Anyone familiar with GcMAF “Bravo” yogurt?»
New to me, but having looked at the page, some quick comments:
Anything WAPF recommends is apt to be leagues ahead of USDA, but not necessarily a fully enlightened ancestral diet/lifestyle. Weston is no longer with us to sign-off on developments there.
re: «This disengagement of the immune system can leave individuals open to infections of all kinds.»
Infections are curiously absent most of the time on the WB/Undoctored programs. Personally, I haven’t had so much as a head cold since switching to the WB program in 2011, and my experience is apparently not unique (although humans are generally terrible at noticing when the unexpected doesn’t happen). So, do I need to be doing more to tune-up my immune system?
re: «…(which one should preferably make with raw milk)…»
Dr. Davis has written about the hazards of fermenting raw milk. My family has milk goats. Although we’ve tried the raw milk, fresh, we routinely pasteurized it when the herd was in milk, and would never have taken a chance on making yogurt with raw. Here’s the dice. Your turn.
re: «Many proponents of GcMAF are recommending doses of D3, anywhere from 2,000-10,000 IU per day. However, vitamin D3 taken on its own can be problematic.»
They write that as if that dose of D3 is mega. It’s not. It’s actually typical for moderns shooting for a 25OH titer of 60-70ng/mL, and the program advice is to consume it in an oil-based formulation (I use fish oil).
re: «Better to take a natural cod liver oil, containing a full range of vitamin D isomers, to provide about 2,000 IU vitamin D daily, along with supporting vitamin A.»
CLO presents typical modern marine risks, particularly mercury. Taken at a dose high enough to provide typical D3, DHA or EPA supplement levels, there’s also some risk of hypervitaminosis A.
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re: «: Dr. Davis has written about the hazards of fermenting raw milk.»
I am unable to find anything online from him on this, please send the links. I have been drinking raw cultured dairy for decades with no incidence of infection. The yogurt I just made was from raw milk, but I heated it to 180. Please elaborate. I don’t consume any dairy that is not cultured.
re: «: They write that as if that dose of D3 is mega. It’s not. It’s actually typical for moderns shooting for a 25OH titer of 60-70ng/mL, and the program advice is to consume it in an oil-based formulation (I use fish oil).»
I think what the suggestion here is to use a proportionate amount of K2 to avoid calcification issues that might present with high-dose D monotherapy.
Regarding D supplementation, I have been taking 5Kiu daily and my levels are consistently ~ 55-60, however, I recently encountered an extensive debate from a poster on a forum with respect to dosing and the established lab reference ranges. Here’s his response (apologies for the length):
“The IOM set the Secosteroid Hormone D RDA at 400iu. It’s totally scientifically based, unlike the goal you mention of 50-70. What’s the scientific support for this level? It’s based upon associations. Why take more? If you switch to a UVB lamp, it would actually be about health and the other molecules we make but don’t talk about. You think the D3 you make has a requirement to show up in serum as 25D? It doesn’t. Not to mention there are TWELVE distinctly different 25D’s and the test picks up only two of them. And feel free to explain how there can be an optimized level of a molecule that does nothing. We store our D in our liver like say a cod. This is why cod liver oil is a good source of D. The body uses 1,25D anyway. And other molecules we never talk about. You drank the Koolaid. Notice after fortification, we were fine until 25D was discovered and the tests were created. This is capitalism you are falling for. Not a health discovery.
I will not teach you the various 25D’s or that 1,25D is the molecule of immune response you need to have a basic understanding to start with. That’s your responsibility because you made the conscious decision to take D based upon something you were told or read.
Here is a form of 25D you won’t have heard of. And it totally matters. Time-course analysis of 3-epi-25-hydroxyvitamin D3 shows markedly elevated levels in early life, particularly from vitamin D supplementation in preterm infants. http://www.nature.com/pr/journal/v79/n4/abs/pr2015251a.html
I can explain the high level focus. They took everyone’s 25D level. They broke them out and grouped them by disease/condition. Then they did something very unscientific and everyone fell for it. They said their D level was the cause of their disease/condition. Turned correlation into causation. A HUGE NO NO in science. But remember, it’s been called a vitamin for generations. The thought of Rickets makes ppl tremble. And it was two genetic mutations OR a pure lack of sun. And to be quite honest we may still not have discovered the molecule that fixes that. Think about it. It could be made by the sun and remain undiscovered. It may get transferred to food sources, as well. No one is looking. It could be one of the molecules I mention but remain an action not recognized or attributed to that molecule. Like 20OHD. The D molecule we make in the sun that protects us from the sun. Or 5,6 trans-vitamin D. I cannot stress enough that NO ONE is looking. Where would that money come from??? The only reason anyone is studying D is to:
1)Make a synthetic. There are thousands of synthetic analogues. Some as simple as D5
2) Looking to piggyback their drug on the D delivery system. Serves about 33 tissue types. Great rail line.
You notice the Combrio (spelling) high dose protocol isn’t a trial. Why not? It’s not like we don’t need them. It’s really a calcium avoidance diet with tons of D so you don’t rodenticide yourself. The lesions going away are the proof. And self reporting. The lesions wax and wane in the absence of D. It’s the placebo effect. It takes 7 days for D3 to become 25D. It can become 1,25D as needed after that. But folks are always telling me how great they feel when they take it. But way too soon. So the number that has become the target these days is way up there. Above any groupings of ANY ill ppl. It’s ludicrous. The folks not converting any 25D to 1,25 D in something known as the IMMUNE RESPONSE. This study is a HUGE wake up call. The reason everyone missed it is because they didn’t use the same measurements. The study used nmol/liter, whereas most in the US are familiar with ng/ml.
“Vitamin D insufficiency (25-hydroxyvitamin D [25(OH)D] < 50 nmol/liter) is prevalent (1–3) and has been suggested to be involved in various diseases such as diabetes, cardiovascular disease, depression, immune system diseases, and certain cancers (4–8). The biomarker used for the determination of vitamin D status is 25(OH)D, rather than the biologically active hormone 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D (9)"
But the RESULTS are shocking when you realize insufficiency level has the LOWEST MORTALITY.
"All-cause mortality associated with serum 25(OH)D levels
The association between all-cause mortality and serum levels of 25(OH)D was reverse J-shaped (Fig. 1A). A serum 25(OH)D level of 50–60 nmol/liter was associated with the lowest mortality risk. The hazard ratios [95% confidence intervals (CI)] of all-cause mortality at very low (10 nmol/liter) and high (140 nmol/liter) serum levels of 25(OH)D were 2.13 (2.02–2.24) and 1.42 (1.31–1.53), respectively. In subjects at least 60 yr old, the mortality was, as in the total population, lowest at a serum 25(OH)D level of 50–60 nmol/liter. In this age group, the hazard ratios (95% CI) of all-cause mortality at low (10 nmol/liter) and high (140 nmol/liter) serum levels of 25(OH)D were 2.04 (1.94–2.17) and 1.44 (1.32–1.56), respectively."
For perspective.
50 nmol/liter = 20 ng/ml
60 nmol/liter = 24 ng/ml
So LOWEST MORTALITY is at the bottom end of INSUFFICIENCY, one away from deficient. NOW THINK!!! The vitamin D Council now wants to go for 80 ng/ml. Many are on some wellness protocols going for 100ng/ml. INSANE!!
Again, for perspective.
140 nmol/liter = 56 ng/ml
That above ^ is what "high" is in the numbers most people are familiar with. That’s a lot of folks these days.
https://academic.oup.com/…/doi/10.1210/jc.2012-1176…
Careful with the unit of measure. The middle one uses non US units.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22573406/
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/100/6/2339/2829632
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3701270/…
The roundtable participants expressed concern about the excessive focus on 25(OH)D concentrations, which do not indicate whether vitamin D is entering and leaving the tissues. For example, clinicians often prescribe vitamin D to bariatric patients before bypass surgery but as they lose weight, their 25(OH)D concentrations increase. As discussed earlier, we do not understand the dynamics of the relation between 25(OH)D and the mobilization of its stores, which could have relevance to excessive exposure in some physiologic conditions. (Vitamin D can become a weapon instead of a tool for balance if you get too much and the stores of this fat-soluble vitamin builds up and then spills into your blood in toxic dosages.) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/18689407/
If I had a nickel for every time I’ve pointed out folks take D3 and measure 25D I’d be RICH.
It matters but luckily for most they avoid physical harm.
Now think about number chasers taking high dose. Some struggle. Do you think Combria (spelling) with his MS protocol knows this? Or Cannell at the VDC? (This being what I post next).
This should cause everyone to pause, really.
With normal doses of D3 the body converts it to 25D fairly quickly. But those taking Supra-doses will store it as D3.
This is hugely important.
“CONCLUSIONS: At physiologic inputs, there is rapid conversion of precursor to product at low vitamin D(3) concentrations and a much slower rate of conversion at higher concentrations. These data suggest that, at typical vitamin D(3) inputs and serum concentrations, there is very little native cholecalciferol in the body, and 25(OH)D constitutes the bulk of vitamin D reserves. However, at supraphysiologic inputs, large quantities of vitamin D(3) are stored as the native compound, presumably in body fat, and are slowly released to be converted to 25(OH)D.“
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/18541563/
Pretty important message here: "Hypercalcemia state continues for several months when D2 or D3 are responsible for the toxicity whereas the hypercalcemia would subside in a week when 1 alpha(OH) D3 or 1,25 (OH)2D3 are responsible for the toxicity." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8483281
Do you use GcMAF? The oral inputs would be carried by ldl. The Vitamin D Binding Protein takes over for those molecules AFTER the arrive at the liver. Sun produced are delivered to the liver by vdbp. So you are using lipoproteins to carry the oral D and it effects your lipid panel but doesn’t require vdbp. But you will utilize vdbp for liver to kidney and kidneys to tissue. But it becomes GcMAF. How are you compensating for a lack of these two molecules? Vdbp is the shuttle. You keep scheduling passengers. You lack shuttles, not passengers.
Make sense?"
Some links that dispute the accuracy of the lab ranges:
https://www.webmd.com/women/news/20120625/newer-vitamin-d-tests-often-inaccurate-study#1
https://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/08/business/08labtest.html
Thoughts?
More on the GcMAF "Bravo" yogurt:
https://thetruthaboutcancer.com/gcmaf/
https://www.marsvenus.com/p/gcmaf-bravo-probiotic-yogurt
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmvCRoIbObE
Over 40 strains:
https://www.zenhealthstore.com/product/gcmaf-bravo-probiotic-yogurt
re: …about the hazards of fermenting raw milk.
Mark wrote: «I am unable to find anything online from him on this…»
And due to the limitations of blog search (and external search of the blogs), I couldn’t quickly find it. But here’s a remark he posted in the yogurt discussion on the subscription site forum: “I don’t know of any difference between the pasteurization methods, but one thing is clear: You MUST pasteurize if you use raw milk. Pasteurization will kill any healthy probiotic microorganisms but will also kill any Listeria or Staphylococcus aureus contaminants; if these species are not killed, consuming the yogurt would make you very ill or kill you, as the fermentation process increases bacterial counts.”
Raw dairy has risks. Fermented raw dairy amplifies those risks. Using saved fermented raw dairy as starter amplifies that amplification (and could dilute the benefits, even if no serious hazards are present). Your call. Recipe advice is to use pasteurized. Personally, I repasteurize, with the extender mixed in, and the whisk in the pot.
re: «I think what the suggestion here is to use a proportionate amount of K2 to avoid calcification issues that might present with high-dose D monotherapy.»
K2 is optional in the program. This might be the most recent blog post on it: FAQ: Should I take vitamin K2? Here’s another D3 article: Ten rules to get your vitamin D just right
re: «…I recently encountered an extensive debate from a poster on a forum with respect to dosing and the established lab reference ranges.…»
The WB/Undoctored program D3 advice was settled on a decade ago, under the original TrackYourPlaque program, based on results in preventing, arresting and reversing heart disease. The books have cites supporting the 25OH target. The D3 is within the context of the whole program.
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“The IOM set the Secosteroid Hormone D RDA at 400iu. It’s totally scientifically based, unlike the goal you mention of 50-70.”
Not according to Robert Heaney who until his death a couple of years ago was probably THE expert on osteoporosis and very knowledgeable about Vitamin D. See what he has to say here:
http://blogs.creighton.edu/heaney/2015/02/13/the-iom-miscalculated-its-rda-for-vitamin-d/
He points out that using the same data as the IOM the Canadian statisticians calculated the dosage should be 8985IU and using a different dataset Heaney calculated ~7000IU, both a full order of magnitude more than the IOM recommendation. However note that individual absorption of oral vitamins varies widely and so the IOM calculation is to ensure that 97.5% of the population would have a value of at least 20 ng/mL. If you are unlucky enough to be in that remaining 2.5% you would need even more. Also note that the IOM thinks that 20ng/ml is adequate but that level is manifestly wrong.
Heaney points out in a series of posts titled “Defining Normal” that with most nutrients there is an S-shaped curve where at severe deficiency levels additional supplements have little to no effect until you cross a threshold after which each increment in level has a large effect (eg calcium absorption as a function of Vitamin D level) until you reach a plateau where further increases in the level have no effect. In the post titled “PART THREE: Defining normal – living on the plateau” he writes:
“Interestingly, in its 2011 intake recommendations, the Institute of Medicine (IOM) used the plateau effect as a part of the basis for its recommendation for vitamin D. The IOM asserted that a 25(OH)D level of 20 ng/mL was sufficient to ensure that most individuals would be on the calcium absorptive plateau. Unfortunately, the IOM panel relied on absorption studies that did not use a nutritionally relevant calcium load. As a result they greatly underestimated the vitamin D status needed to guarantee optimal regulation of calcium absorption. This is seen immediately when we recall that absorption is a load phenomenon, i.e., how many ions of calcium can be carried across the intestinal mucosa during the short time during which the digested food is in contact with the absorptive mucosa. Vitamin D (actually calcitriol in this instance) causes the intestinal lining cells to manufacture calcium transporters. Clearly, if you have fewer calcium ions to transport, you can max out with fewer transporters. It’s just that straightforward. As a consequence, it follows that if you want to optimize absorptive regulation for nutritionally relevant calcium sources (e.g., a glass of milk), you’ve got to do your testing using nutritionally relevant calcium loads. And when you do that, the absorptive plateau begins at 25(OH)D concentrations of 32–35 ng/mL, not 20 as the IOM declared.”
Note that the IOM besides getting its numbers wrong is implicitly assuming that the sole purpose of Vitamin D is to provide bone health, yet we know that every cell in our bodies has receptors for Vitamin D and in particular D is known to be crucial for immune function. Plus the RDA of 400IU is the same for everyone from a newborn baby to a 100lb adult woman or a 250lb rugby player. How can a nursing mother supply 400IU/day to her baby in her breast milk if she herself is only getting 400IU? Answer: she can’t. As Heaney points out in the post titled “Vitamin D and the nursing mother” the mother needs 5-6,000IUs to provide enough for herself and her baby.
Also note that the RDAs for most nutrients are far too low because they are based on a fundamental misunderstanding of how the body works. The RDA is based on the dose required to prevent the most obvious deficiency disease – eg scurvy for Vitamin C, tickets for Vitamin D or pellagra for Niacin (B3) – and ignores that the nutrient may be necessary for other functions in the body. The “Triage Theory” of Bruce Ames proposes that when nutrients are in short supply the body will prioritise processes critical for short-term survival and divert nutrients from those necessary for long-term survival, and he has proved that this occurs with Vitamin K and selenium. (Those were chosen because they’re used in relatively few proteins, whereas for example magnesium is used in over 400 proteins) This makes so much evolutionary sense it’s surprising no-one thought of it before. What it means is the RDAs are too low to be optimal.
Studies have shown that those with the highest vitamin D levels have the lowest risk of MS, arteriosclerosis, breast cancer, bowel cancer and various infectious diseases. I don’t have a problem with a recommendation of 50-60ng/ml.
The most important thing to remember, is that taking supplements in any amount is likely to have little if any benefit in the presence of an otherwise toxic, nutrient deficient diet.
Correcting the way of eating will result in the need for little if any supplements.
As I am having a hard time locating the BioGaia Gastrus tablets in Canada is it possible to just use their ProTecTis tablets? These only contain the DSM 17938 strain. Hope you can clarify as my wife and I are looking at starting a batch. My brother swears by this yoghurt and he has seen many benefits since starting in November 2018
Dan wrote: «As I am having a hard time locating the BioGaia Gastrus tablets in Canada…»
People have been reporting that, both on the blogs and on the subscription site. Apparently, Biogaia is not shipping the Gastrus® product to Canada yet. You will find .ca web sites that offer it, but be sure to clarify with them whether it is stocked in country, or being exported from elsewhere. If an export, be sure to clarify how shipped, and whether that carrier irradiates.
re: «…is it possible to just use their ProTecTis tablets? These only contain the DSM 17938 strain.»
I’m not sure we know with any confidence.
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