Dr. William Davis

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Troubleshooting L. reuteri yogurt-making

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Making yogurt to amplify counts of the bacteria Lactobacillus reuteri is really very simple. We do this because the ATCC PTA 6475 and DSM 17938 strains of L. reuteri provide a ton of health benefits that includes increased skin/dermal thickness and reduction of skin wrinkles, increased or preserved bone density, reduced appetite, increased muscle, massively accelerated healing, increased libido, and and may even prevent recurrences of small intestinal bacterial overgrowth (SIBO), given the organism’s potential to colonize the upper gastrointestinal tract.

But some people struggle to obtain the thick, delicious yogurt that most of us create and thereby are unable to enjoy all the spectacular health benefits of this targeted probiotic strategy. (It’s NOT about the yogurt; it’s about increasing counts of this bacterial strain—the yogurt is just the vehicle we use to accomplish this.)

 

If you are encountering difficulties in making the L. reuteri yogurt, consider these troubleshooting items:

  • Temperature—Unlike most other lactate-fermenting species used to make yogurt, L. reuteri grows best at a lower temperature of around 100 degrees F. Microbial die-off begins at 115 degrees, with virtual wipe-out of the organism at 120 degrees. Unfortunately, many heating devices, such as yogurt makers or Instant Pots, either do not specify the temperature and/or are set inaccurately and generate temperatures of 120 degrees F or higher, killing your bacteria. If you fail to see any fermentation, i .e., no thickening occurs after 12-16 hours, check the temperature with a thermometer. You may have to use another device or do as I do: Use the oven by turning onto any temperature, e.g., 300 degrees, for 60 seconds, then turn off; repeat every 4 hours or so. As imprecise as this seems, it works great and you do not need to purchase any devices. (At night, heat before bedtime, then again when you awake—no need to get up in the middle of the night.)
  • Not enough prebiotic fiber—We use 2 tablespoons prebiotic fiber, such as Bob’s Red Mill Raw Potato Starch or powdered inulin, per quart of liquid. Omitting this step will yield a thinner end-product with markedly lower bacterial counts and thereby not yield the benefits we are looking to obtain.
  • Ferment longer—Although you may have yogurt after 12 hours, this is not long enough to generate the magnitude of bacterial counts we desire in the trillions. (See the Arithmetic of Yogurt blog post.) We therefore aim to ferment for 30 to 36 hours, then refrigerate.
  • Use a thicker starting liquid–I like starting with (organic) half-and-half, as the 18% fat yields a cream cheese-like end-product, thick and rich. Cream also works, but yields something close to the consistency of butter, too thick for my taste. Full-fat milk (cow, A2 milk, goat, sheep) is okay, but expect a thinner end-product, similar in consistency to store-bought yogurt. Avoid use of skim, low-fat, 2%, or non-dairy almond, hemp, soy milks, as they are too thin and, of course, we never limit fat on the Wheat Belly lifestyle. Coconut milk (canned, never carton) can be used, but be sure to emulsify the milk (e.g., stick/immersion blender) prior to adding starting culture and prebiotic fiber; this prevents separation of the fat.

Recall that strain specificity is important: while there are other strains of L. reuteri available, we have no evidence to suggest they yield similar benefits. So, for assurance of full benefit, stick to the strains that we know yield these effects, the L. reuteri ATCC PTA 6475 and DSM 17938 available from BioGaia.

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Comments & Feedback...

  1. I have made this several times – always thick, no problems at all. I use half cream and half -half/half, powdered inulin. I used the tablets to begin with – now I use the yogurt as starter. I do have a yogurt maker, and I leave it in for about 30 hours. Nice and thick – I usually add a little grain free granola & 8 blueberries! Excellent – fills you up.
    At some point should I add crushed tablets again?

    • Patricia Jones wrote: «At some point should I add crushed tablets again?»

      I don’t think we really know yet. I seem to recall Dr. Davis saying that he’s done over 20 batches generationally, with no apparent impairment of benefits.

      Before switching to my current technique, I was adding one crushed tablet every 5th generation. Now I just pour off the whey fraction into ice cube trays, freeze them, bag them, and use 1 cube/quart as starter. I’m still on the first bag of those I collected.
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  2. Hi there. Did you not post that a other strain of L Reuteri is also beneficial? Strain UALre-16?
    I have been adding a couple of caps of that to the yogurt starter as well as the BioGaia tablets.
    Thanks

    • Jo bosch wrote: «Did you not post that a other strain of L Reuteri is also beneficial? Strain UALre-16?»

      Yes, but my impression of that, was that it was a single anecdotal report, and we don’t have the volume of science for UALre-16 that we have for ATCC PTA 6475 and DSM 17938.

      re: «I have been adding a couple of caps of that to the yogurt starter as well as the BioGaia tablets.»

      Keep us informed of results. Over time, these strains may not remain in equal balance. What that implies for benefits is unclear.
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      • Will you be doing any testing with the strain I mentioned in the future ? Would be interesting to know as the natures way brand has a much higher dose in the billions unlike the bio Gaia one. So far yoghurt has been thick and creamy and wonderful the consistency of sour cream. Love it to people of told me my skin looks better this week

  3. The last few batches the yogurt has separated into curd and whey phases. This didn’t happen at the start. I ferment organic half and half at 110 F in a sous vide water bath for 36 hours. The batches are inoculated with starter and one crushed tablet.

    Any suggestions?

    • Mike J wrote: «The last few batches the yogurt has separated into curd and whey phases.»

      What materials are you using, in particular what brand of milk, H&H or cream, and what, if anything, is in those other than “milk”?

      My batches (all done at 100°F lately) tend to be thick on top, thick on the bottom, and cream-like in the middle. If I get a pronounced whey fraction, I pour it into ice cue trays, freeze and bag it as future starter, and that hasn’t happened in a while. I’ve haven’t added any tabs since switching to this technique.
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      • My yogurt maker keeps a temp at 110 for 36 hours. My batches come out exactly as you describe, and I also sometimes get a whey fraction (I think) of just liquid. However, after cooking I just stir it all up (whey included) before refrigerating. Is that the correct thing to do? Will I ever achieve a consistently thick batch?

        • Lisa wrote: «…sometimes get a whey fraction (I think) of just liquid. However, after cooking I just stir it all up (whey included) before refrigerating. Is that the correct thing to do?»

          The whey fraction of dairy can be insulinotropic, and impede weight loss .So some people like to discard it for that reason — or save it off to be used in small portions as starter.

          re: «Is that the correct thing to do? Will I ever achieve a consistently thick batch?»

          Stirring prior to cooling is fine. I’ve never had a consistently thick batch. The texture always varies to some degree from top to bottom. However, since it gets used up as a smoothie ingredient, we don’t care.
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  4. Is it recommended to use the Instant Pot setting ‘BOIL’ ? I have used this setting which heats to about 170* for only a short time, cool to 110* then adding starter tablets, and inulin. I have seen posts mentioning it. I last used 1 qt H&H , 1 qt HWC and 1 qt whole milk, 1/2 cup starter from previous batch, 2 tablets, and 2 tbs inulin for 42 hours. A bit tart and thick.

    • Keith M wrote: «Is it recommended to use the Instant Pot setting ‘BOIL’?»

      That’s the only thing I use our Cosori not-so-smart pot for in yogurt making. Take the dairy substrate to 180°F for 10 minutes to [re]pasteurize.

      By the way, I’m experimenting with adding the inulin and RPS prior to [re]past. If some of it gets converted to simpler carb forms, I’m not sure we care. The bugs will just eat it faster. What it does ensure is that any (thermophobic) random microbes in the inulin/RPS get nuked.

      re: «…cool to 110* then adding starter tablets, and inulin.»

      I cool by setting the pot in a cold water bath in the sink, let it settle to about 102°F (because it’s going to coast down more), pull it, dry the exterior, add the starter, and pop it into the (pre-warmed} reactor.

      re: «…for 42 hours.»

      What’s the theory on that? It may be too long for ideal yogurt, and too long for pulling starter.

      re: «A bit tart and thick.»

      That’s not surprising.
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      • Re:42 hrs
        42 hrs was experimental for 3 qt batch. Previous batches were 1qt H&H and 1 qt HWC for 36 hrs.
        When should the starter be pulled? I have pulled 1/2 cup at 12 hours.
        Also, the finished product was at 100*.

        • I’ve been making lreuteri in instapot since end of May. Usually add a few crushed tabs to starter. NEVER had really thick yogurt, always cottage cheesy in texture, in spite of half/half. Lately batches are extremely tart, to the point I have to add stevia or something or can barely tolerate it and I really don’t mind tart ordinarily. I have lost about 12 lbs and feel pretty good even while traveling. Post menopausal so any weight loss extremely difficult. Wish there were a way to test if I’m actually growing the right stuff. Will try a new batch with oven method once I’m not traveling.

          • Peg wrote: «Lately batches are extremely tart, to the point I have to add stevia or something… Wish there were a way to test if I’m actually growing the right stuff.»

            If it’s tart, it would be expected to mean that the Lactobacilli are making lactic acid (that’s how they got their name).

            re: «Post menopausal so any weight loss extremely difficult.»

            You might run through the checklist in this article (which itself links to more articles, many accessible to non-members). For example, if you’ve never had a real thyroid panel run (fT3, fT4, rT3, TSH, TPOab, TGab), don’t be surprised if untreated (or under-/mis-treated hypothyroid is the culprit).
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        • Keith M wrote: «When should the starter be pulled? I have pulled 1/2 cup at 12 hours.»

          For a batch run to 36 hours, Dr. Davis has suggested that it’s not necessary to pull it any earlier.

          If pulling early, it’s a function of starter portion size for future batches. You want the starter portion to contain at least the 1B CFUs that the 10 tabs had. When I ran the numbers for the portion size I use (one ice cube per quart), pulling off start had to wait for at least 18 hours.
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  5. I have made three batches now of the Le reuteri yoghurt. My yoghurt maker heats to 110 degrees according to a thermometer. I have not had much luck with thickening, or whey separating out. I have strained each batch ( saved the whey) & then get a thicker yoghurt. Do you think this sounds like it is making yoghurt?

    • Chris Munroe wrote: «I have not had much luck with thickening…»

      What are you using for dairy substrate? A lot of milk, cream and half&half products contain additives that can interfere with culturing.

      re: «I have strained each batch ( saved the whey) & then get a thicker yoghurt.»

      I’m unclear on this? Are you saving the why for starter or for consumption?

      re: «Do you think this sounds like it is making yoghurt?»

      Good chance. What does it smell and taste like?
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      • Thanks Bob. I’m in Australia, just using 1/2 pure cream & 1/2 full cream milk. No additives .
        Straining purely to thicken. Actually give the whey to the dog. Smells & tastes quite good – maybe I need to get a yoghurt maker that I can control the temp to around 106 – current one heats to 110. – no ability to reduce that temp.

  6. I have been making this yogurt for months now, after a couple practice batches I have had consistent results. My crock pots and rice maker got way too hot, so my next step was my microwave oven. I have an over-the-stove microwave oven and it gets very warm when I use my conventional oven so I checked the temp and my yogurt stays between 100 and 105 degrees. I use a quart of half and half and a pint of heavy cream. I mix a tablespoon of potato starch to a half cup of yogurt from the previous batch whisk it into the half and half/heavy cream then set it in the microwave for 32-36 hours intermittently turning on my conventional oven to 400 degrees I turn it off when I go to bed and restart the next morning. The finished product I whisk vigorously for a minute or so and pour into glass bowls then refrigerate. I haven’t figured out what I will do when I am on vacation in the fall.

    • Kris Kesler wrote: «…so my next step was my microwave oven.»

      So you’re just using the microwave as an insulated containment? (and not actually running it, which would be expected to kill much of the culture)
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  7. Is anyone willing to recommend a specific yogurt maker (or other device) with which they’ve had success in hitting all of the various temperature and time markers that this process requires? I’ll admit, that while I want to try this, I also want to put the minimum amount of effort into it and don’t feel like I have the time or patience to be experimenting with workarounds involving existing household appliances. Thanks.

    • My incubator uses a temperature controller, an electric cook element, and a water filled pot with a round cooling rack at the bottom. The electric cook element is overkill and likely a heating pad would be sufficient if you have one already.. So you might do fine with a heat pad and a temperature controller. In my setup, the cooling rack is used to provide some separation between the yogurt jars and the heating element.

      cooling rack: https://www.amazon.com/Loghot-Multi-Purpose-Stainless-Steaming-Diameter-8-27/dp/B01IR3XALC/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1533222403&sr=8-6&keywords=stainless+cooling+rack+round

      Temperature controller: https://www.amazon.com/WILLHI-Temperature-Controller-Thermostat-Improved/dp/B00V4TJR00/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1533221408&sr=8-5&keywords=bayite+ac+110v+fahrenheit+digital+temperature+controller

      FWIW, I don’t have one of the above, but rather several of these, which have held up well for various purposes:

      https://www.amazon.com/bayite-Temperature-Controller-Thermostat-Pre-wired/dp/B01KMA6EAM/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1533221408&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=bayite+ac+110v+fahrenheit+digital+temperature+controller

      • Ray wrote: «So you might do fine with a heat pad and a temperature controller. In my setup, the cooling rack is used to provide some separation between the yogurt jars and the heating element.»

        If I didn’t already have an ad-hoc solution that’s working perfectly, I’d be tempted to implement a solution that uses one of those digital controllers. Some suggestions for anyone contemplating that approach:

        • Heat the air, and not the mix (probe in air).
        Due to the general challenge of critical damping in servomechanism design, heating a large thermal mass directly is at some risk of inducing temperature spikes before the probe detects it, if not run-away oscillations.

        • Start with the controller manual.
        Download the controller manual and study it before purchase (and if you can’t, you’ve just learned something troubling about that brand).

        • You don’t need a super hot heater.
        If you put the pot and the probe inside even a disposable Styrofoam cooler, the heat source probably doesn’t need to emit more than 20W (I use an old CFL bulb). This also conveniently implies that the controller doesn’t have to be rated for a lot of amps. But it’s not enough heat to bring a room-temp mix up to ferment temp in a timely fashion, so…

        • Pre-warm the mix and the containment.
        Start the containment heating before preparing the yogurt mix, so that it’s already at the hold temp when the ferment starts. Pre-warm (or, post-pasteurization, pre-cool) the mix to the target temp before moving it to the pre-warmed containment.
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        • I just read your write-up about the ad-hoc yogurt reactor. Good setup. With the temperature controller, I’m pretty sure you could just put your yogurt jars in the cooler, throw a towel over them (to insulate them from the heat source), put the temperature probe on top of the towel and turn on the temperature controller.

          I don’t worry too much about getting the cultures to target temperature at the outset.. Most of the time, my half & half, and the starter culture are coming out of the refrigerator at about 37*F. I blend them and put them in the cold water bath. In my setup, the hotplate is near the lowest possible setting, so it takes the controller more than an hour to get up to temperature. I sometimes imagine that the culture likes avoiding the heat shock.

  8. Am I not supposed to be getting whey? I made a first batch, cultured for 36 hours in a yogurt maker. The yogurt was very slightly grainy in texture but with lots of whey. The yogurt tastes fantastic. I assumed whey was a natural part of making the yogurt.

    • Kandi wrote: «Am I not supposed to be getting whey?…»

      Whether a batch has obvious whey varies. Lately, my batches tend to be thick on top and bottom, and like heavy cream in the center.

      re: «I assumed whey was a natural part of making the yogurt»

      What to do with the whey fraction also varies. If it’s really watery, I’d save it off to be used as starter (freezing in ice cube trays works great). Some folks just discard it. Some blend it into the total and consume it.
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      • I just made my 5th batch and the whey is super thick and a little slimy. The yogurt is also a different consistency. It is somewhat like melted marshmallow. Nothing else seems different. Does this sound ok to eat?
        Thank you.

        • Nikki wrote: «Does this sound ok to eat?»

          I’ve tossed two batches (both non-dairy experiments); one due to an obvious pronounced fungus-like growth on the top, and the other for black mold spots.

          Absent such obvious signs, I’d go by aroma and taste.

          What is your starter technique? Saving off some batch-to-batch?
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          • Yes. I save off some yogurt and whey from each batch.

            The taste and smell are fine. The consistency is throwing me off a bit but I won’t throw it away.

            Quick question for clarification….Are we supposed to add inulin to each batch or just the initial batch?

            Thank you.
            Nikki

          • Nikki wrote: «Are we supposed to add inulin to each batch or just the initial batch?»

            Every batch. The only thing unique about the first batch is crushed tablets instead of saved starter.
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  9. I am making my second batch now. I used a combination of whole milk and whipping cream because thats what I had on hand. Its been culturing for almost 24 hours with no sign of whey. And it appears to have a consistency like store bought yogurt. I only used previous L. reuteri yogurt for starter, no additional crushed tablets and mixed the potato starch with whey. And its been culturing in my yogurt maker. Next time I will try half and half and up the amount of potato starch. Thanks!

  10. I’d like to thank Dr. Davis for (among other things) introducing me to L. reuteri (ATCC PTA 6475 and DSM 17938) yogurt. I’ve made at least 30 batches. When I began I was using a Yolife yogurt maker and discovered that the temps were excessive. I was shocked as I had used it for years without questioning the temperature. So I bought a light dimmer (Lutron model TT-300) and after testing with jar of water overnight, found that setting the dimmer at about 9/16 power, the Yolife output the acceptable voltage for the proper temperature. But it required monitoring.

    Now I use a Sous Vide Supreme device to make yogurt. The temperature can be set to whatever and so easily and accurately maintained. The yogurt is thick with very little whey. I use 1 qt. Organic Valley half and half and 1 Tbs Dextrose and 1 “muffin” of frozen yogurt from previous batches.

    But what I’ve not seen commented on in the Wheatbelly blog (I’m not a member of Undoctored) is the increase in testostone and increase in testicular size. See Dr. Davis’ post:
    https://www.wheatbellyblog.com/2018/01/lactbacillus-reuteri-key-youthfulness/

    Richard

    • Bob (or someone) – I do not see a way to edit my post. Can you delete my last name shown at the top of my post? I did not think that it would be made public. Thanks.
      Richard

      • Richard wrote: «…delete my last name shown at the top of my post?»

        Looks like a moderator took care of it. Be aware, however, that the originally submitted name would have gone out to anyone subscribed for email update notifications. More significantly, anything, posted almost anywhere, on the internet, for more than a few minutes, is seen by search engines, which never forget (except in France, and then only maybe). It’s hard to say what consequences this might have for your Presidential campaign plans.☺

        re: «I did not think that it would be made public.»

        WordPress blogs routinely show the “Name” field and hide the “Email” field. The “Website” field is ignored if blank; otherwise it’s used to turn the Name into a link (as with my Name here). I need to update my How-To-Use article to document this.

        * The asterisks evidently imply required fields, but notation to that effect appears to have been lost during style revamps over time (as was any notation about what’s published).
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  11. I tried using a crock pot as an ad hoc yogurt maker with mixed results. The L. Reuteri culture is very sensitive to excessive temperatures. So I purchased the “Luvele Pure Yogurt Maker”, which is the only one I could find with specific temperature settings (36, 38, and 40 degrees C). Using the 38 degree setting gives me very consistent thick yogurts every time in 12-16 hours. (I use half and half with inulin powder.) For me it was well worth the $80 Amazon cost.

  12. I have made this yogurt about 8 times now, almost the same for my sister. We use the same ingredients, same Instant Pot appliance. Her’s came out quite thick and cottage cheese-like; mine came out like very creamy glue. Totally difference texture. Do you have an idea on what the differences could mean? Thanks!

    • Kathy wrote: «We use the same ingredients, same Instant Pot appliance.»

      And same run time and starter technique I presume. What temperature ranges do your respective pots hold, as verified by thermometers or digital probes known to be accurate within a couple of degrees?

      re: «Totally difference texture.»

      Do you notice any difference in aroma, taste and any effects?
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      • I think that the temperature is stated as 110 F, but I have not used a thermometer to double-check. I will do so when this batch is done tomorrow morning to verify.

        The taste seems a little tarter for her version. We did not check aroma nor noticed any difference in effects.

  13. As a point of reference, after my last batch in an Instant Pot DUO80 (8-quart), with 4 quarts of yogurt, using the stainless cooking pot, at the end just before it hit 36 hours, I took the top off while it was still in the yogurt cycle (not in “keep warm”), and immediately took the temperature with my (uncalibrated) ThermaPen,
    102 degrees Fahrenheit just below the surface in the center, 105-106 in the middle center, and about 110 at the bottom just above the pot, as well as at the edges just inside of the pot.

  14. Help! Made my first batch. Used goat’s milk, hwc, inulin and potato starch

    Tastes like sour milk. I have to add quite a bit of sweetener to eat it. No food poisoning yet

    I did sous vide about 36 hours (it was still quite thin so I kept letting it go) started at 100, but went up to 108 when I wasn’t getting results

    Was it the goat’s milk?

    If I use whey from this batch will I continue that awful taste?

    • Sandra wrote: «Made my first batch. Used goat’s milk, hwc, inulin and potato starch»

      Was this fresh or raw goat milk, or reconstituted from powder?

      If powder, what brand and product?

      Did you [re]pasteurize it and let it cool to below 110°F before adding starter? And what was the starter (I’m guessing 10 crushed Biogaia® Gastrus® tablets).

      re: «Tastes like sour milk.»

      Well, the expected product is quite tart, not unlike sour cream.

      re: «…36 hours (it was still quite thin so I kept letting it go) started at 100, but went up to 108…»

      If it’s not fermenting at 100, raising the temperature won’t help.

      re: «Was it the goat’s milk?»

      My experience using both raw and reconstituted (Mt.Capra) goat milk is that the final product is basically indistinguishable from the bovine dairy yogurt. In particular, no goaty taste is apparent.

      re: «If I use whey from this batch will I continue that awful taste?»

      With answers to the questions above, I might have more insight on that. In the meantime, you might pour it into ice cube trays, freeze it, and bag it until a decision is made.
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      • Hi
        It was goat’s milk from the grocery store (not powdered)

        I did not run a pasturization stage

        Started cold

        • Sandra wrote: «It was goat’s milk from the grocery store (not powdered)…»

          Presumably pasteurized; what brand, and what was in the Ingredients list other than milk (if anything)?

          re: «I did not run a pasteurization stage»

          If you’re using a sous vide, it might not have one anyway. I’ve taken to [re]pasteurizing every time (using a separate appliance from my yogurt reactor), and even tossing in the inulin and RPS before I do that.

          re: «Started cold»

          That shouldn’t be a culturing problem, as long as the machine doesn’t spike the temp before settling in at 100. Did you happen to run a test cycle with water before using real ingredients, and monitoring temp? (or just check temp from time to time during the real batch)
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          • Hi
            It was laclare
            It was pasteurized
            It had added vit d and a

            I had read previously that since the dairy was pasteurized, we didn’t need to heat it. Has that changed?

            I did boil my empty container before use

            I will check the temp, but I’m pretty confident in my sous vide

          • Sandra wrote: «It had added vit d and a»

            The D (if D3) doesn’t seem to interfere with fermentation. The A I’m less sure about, or even exactly why it’s there (having antioxidant properties, it could be there for shelf life).

            re: «I had read previously that since the dairy was pasteurized, we didn’t need to heat it.»

            It’s your call. I’ve taken to running a pasteurization cycle regardless, and with the inulin and potato starch already added (but not the starter, of course).
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    • Sandra,

      When starting Bio-Gaia Gastrus, from tablets (for me) the first batch needs to ferment a long time and tends to be sour as a result. I don’t eat it, rather I use it as a starter for subsequent batches. I have kept it for a month in the fridge and it still generates good batches. Subsequent batches turn out thick and ferment solid within 12 hours.

      So far, my procedure for starters is like so (I’ve done it this way only 3 times — usually I start subsequent batches from a heaping tablespoon of finished yogurt.):

      1. Boil a pint jar & lid in water to sterilize.
      2. Crush 1 Bio-Gaia tablet while it is still in the blister pack.
      3. Remove the jar and lid from hot water, and place the top on the jar.
      4. When the jar cools so you can comfortably handle it, add about 1.5 ounces of sterile milk and the crushed tablet.
      5. Place the jar in a 100 degree F incubator for 24 hours.
      6. Add 2 ounces of sterile milk and put back in the incubator for 24 hours.
      7. Add 4 ounces of sterile milk and incubate for 24 more hours.

      So far this has resulted in a thin, sour yogurt that is somewhat revolting to contemplate eating, but works well as a starter.

  15. I’ve read most threads I can find on making and troubleshooting this yogurt.
    Like a few others, I experience gas, bloating and diarrhea that MAY be a result of this yogurt.
    Others who have commented with similar side effects were not clear on how soon after consumption these side effects occurred.
    I wanted to get some thoughts on what might be happening before blaming the yogurt and discontinuing.

    I’ve made 3 batches (2 using crushed tabs and one using left over yogurt from previous batch). All have used cream/milk heated to just below simmer.

    I use as much as 3 tbsps. of inulin per litre of milk/cream and culture it at between 37-40 degrees celsius for 30-36hrs. All batches have had a thick creamy consistency with a “skim milk” like separation of liquid/whey of about a third on the bottom of each jar. Although this cultures for 36hrs, I am wondering if there is still too much inulin left that might be responsible for some bloating… but I DO NOT get symptoms within an hour but instead get then 8 – 10 hours after eating the yogurt.

    In the past I’ve worked as a TA3 in microbiology performing coliform assays for over a decade so am well familiar with aseptic techniques… I am very confident jars/equipment and handling were aseptic and I am using a yogurt maker to maintain temp.

    I understand others may get such symptoms because of dysbiosis, but again I get symptoms 8 – 10 hours after eating the yogurt rather than within a shorter time.

    I eat other dairy regularly without symptoms as well as other fermented foods (locally homemade pickles/sauerkraut)

    Doasgae of the yogurt is between 1/2 -3/4 cup per day

    Some insight or suggestions would be enormously appreciated.

    Peter In Aus

    • Peter wrote: «…I experience gas, bloating and diarrhea that MAY be a result of this yogurt. … I use as much as 3 tbsps. of inulin per litre…»

      How much prebiotic fiber do you get per day, and with what response? (prebiotics, not probiotics) As you probably know from following the blogs, prompt (less than 2 hr) adverse response (which you are, interestingly, NOT getting) is highly suggestive of an upper GI dysbiosis, such as SIBO.

      re: «I am wondering if there is still too much inulin left…»

      I concur with your suspicion. I’m using 1 tablespoon of inulin per quart.

      re: «…I get symptoms 8 – 10 hours after eating the yogurt rather than within a shorter time.»

      An obvious thing to try is to back off on the inulin in the next batch. You’ve clearly got hygiene under control. I might ask if this A1 or A2 dairy, and do the products contain only milk or cream (many of our N.A. dairy products are contaminated with emulsifiers and “vitamins” that are really acting as preservatives, either of which could have intestinal and/or fermentation effects.
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      • Greatly appreciate the reply.

        re: «How much prebiotic fiber do you get per day, and with what response? »

        I don’t actively monitor this, I am ketogenic and have been for the better part of 3 years. I have about 20-30 g undutched cocoa per day as well as 10-30g erythritol several times a week. Plenty of broccoli/leafy greens… konjac noodle 2 or 3 times a week. Other than noticeable increased urinary frequency/volume when consuming erythritol (to be expected) there is no noticeable other GI symptoms.

        re: «I concur with your suspicion. I’m using 1 tablespoon of inulin per quart. »

        My current batch incubating now has less inulin, I’m hoping this might be the culprit. All 3 batches have had different brands of milk/cream (none of them UHT).. I am in Thailand at present which means all milk/cream is very likely to be A1.. they are also brands that I regularly use without fermenting, also eat a lot of hard cheeses without issues.

        Although I really don’t want to, I may go a day or 2 without the yogurt and see if symptoms disappear, then try to re-introduce this lower dose inulin batch at lower daily dose and see if severity is different if symptoms return.

        Just interesting that (if it is the yogurt) that these symptoms manifest 8 – 10 hours later.

        Completely off topic, I dont eat the whey (only because it is insulinogenic) but had a crazy question on using it to ferment veggies such as bell peppers/cauliflower etc..)

        Many thanks
        Peter

        • Peter wrote: «I am ketogenic and have been for the better part of 3 years.»

          Then you need to run the numbers on how much prebiotic fiber you get. About half the possible sources are off the list on KD, due to net carbs. It’s not trivial to stay below 20 grams net carb per day, yet get at least 20 grams prebiotic carb. Most people doing KD are not walking this fine line, and more likely are unaware of it. They are inviting dysbiosis, and perhaps novel presentations thereof.

          re: «I am in Thailand at present which means all milk/cream is very likely to be A1.»

          Beta casein issues aside, do dairy product containers there have Ingredients lists? How credible are they? There is, alas, strong financial incentive for dairy producers to add preservatives to their products, both to provide slop in processing, storage and transport, and to extend shelf life at retail. I was lately looking at a page, apparently intended for food inspectors, with tips on how to detect illegal preservatives — and this is in the U.S. Preservatives interfere with both the ferment, and with general gut health.

          re: «…also eat a lot of hard cheeses without issues.»

          Sugars and whey would be gone in aged cheeses, and proteins modified to some extent. Cheese reactions (or the lack thereof) are the least enlightening in terms of us vs. dairy (but also the first thing to try when re-challenging a dairy elimination).

          re: «Just interesting that (if it is the yogurt) that these symptoms manifest 8 – 10 hours later.»

          Yep, and that you are doing chronic keto may or may not be coincidental. Here’s Dr. Davis on that: Be ketotic . . . but only sometime

          re: «…I dont eat the whey … but had a crazy question on using it to ferment veggies such as bell peppers/cauliflower etc.»

          Someone else asked about that lately as well, and if anyone knows the answer, I haven’t seen it. The L.reuts have their temperature preferences (which you can control), and their substrate preferences (which may not include random vegetable carbs), and they may also have strong opinions about pH. Dairy tends to hover around 6.6. I have no idea where veg ferments range.
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  16. I checked the temperature of the yogurt after 36 hours in my IP…it was 104 F. The batch was very thick and creamy. This, and the last batch were the best. In addition to the yogurt as starter, I add a little bit of the whey from the last batch.

  17. How do you know for sure that your yogurt hasn’t been contaminated by other bacterial species? Of course I use clean jars, equipment, etc. but not sterile. Is it possible to accidentally be growing competing strains? How can you tell?

  18. I have forgotten…

    What is the advantage of adding the prebiotic fiber before culturing, rather than after? I have not been adding fiber prior to culturing for a quite a while now, and am thinking that it (fiber) might actually reduce the probability of a clean culture.

    • Ray wrote: «What is the advantage of adding the prebiotic fiber before culturing,…»

      It provides a fermentable substrate for the L.reuts, who will then convert it into more of their number, plus their metabolites. Also, being prebiotic/resistant, they will probably tend to do so slowly, perhaps later in the ferment. And if they don’t, we don’t care, because it then becomes prebiotic fiber for our overall gut flora (or which the L.reuts are apt to be a minority).

      In the specific case of inulin, it’s not a preferred L.reuts chow, so I see it as also acting as a buffer, and keeping the CFUs afloat if they happen to consume all of the simpler carbs too fast.

      re: «…rather than after?»

      Can I ask where that idea came from? I don’t recall any of the yogurt articles suggesting that. Doing so is just like adding that prebiotic to a recipe that includes some of the finished yogurt. It’s apt to have nil effect with respect to the yogurt per se.

      re: «…am thinking that it (fiber) might actually reduce the probability of a clean culture.»

      Yep. What might be open for discussion is whether to [re]pasteurize at all, and if done, whether to add everything but the starter when doing so (and I do, by the way). The upside is that any opportunistic microbes in the amendments are apt to be suppressed. The downside might be that some of the complex carbs are simplified (but then would be expected to be metabolized that much quicker).
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      • A few comments:

        Based solely on my experience there seems to be adequate substrate without the addition of prebiotic fiber. Has anyone done bacterial counts yet?

        A while back, I read some papers that showed both glucose and prebiotic fiber help the bacteria survive the acid environment of the stomach. Adding the prebiotics after the fermentation would help get the bacteria where they need to be. In my case, I have noticed the bacteria have indeed got where they need to be (without the addition of probiotic fiber either before or after culturing) based on GI effects.

        If there is adequate substrate for a good culture (which seems to be the case) then there is no need to risk contamination by adding a non-sterile substance at the outset.