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Would like to read Dr.Davis’s reaction to the recent U.S.News on putting a ketogenic diet as second from last because of high fat low carb consumption. Everyone knows we need plenty of “healthy” whole grains for optimum health. What a crock!! Oprah for president lol
Dread the Bread wrote: «Would like to read Dr.Davis’s reaction to the recent U.S.News…»
Don’t hold your breath, as it’s probably not worth commenting on, and hasn’t been, forever. Dr. Davis didn’t comment when the membership discussed last years U.S.News diet ranking propaganda on the subscription forum.
What you need to know about stores like these might be:
WB Blog: Did Big Pharma BUY Big Media?
and of course, not just Big Pharma, but Big Food too.
If you want to know the real priorities at media outlets like these, just survey the ads.
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It seems dietitians won’t budge on their view that humans need carbs at regular intervals throughout the day. It could be that the Pharmaceutical industry is at play here as well.
I have been thinking about taking a keto break for awhile but I’m not sure how to go about it. If I just raise my carbs to Wheat Belly standard levels, I don’t think my blood sugar would adjust, based on prior periods of temporary “overeating” from a keto standpoint, but remaining low carb in the recommended 15g per meal range. Should I increase carbs to at least 150/day for three days to reset things? I’m afraid that might put me into a diabetic coma after 2.5 years keto.
Kali wrote: «I have been thinking about taking a keto break for awhile…»
Just to be clear, this is a break from chronic keto? And in any case, in the context of what wider program?
re: «…but I’m not sure how to go about it.»
As you probably know, WB/Undoctored endorses temporary ketosis, but does not advocate chronic keto. Even if the wider dietary context here is WB/Undoctored, I’d be curious about how the 20 grams/day prebiotic fiber goal is being achieved.
re: «Should I increase carbs to at least 150/day for three days to reset things?»
I’ve never seen a recommendation to go above 50g net carb/day for any reason other than to compensate for glycogen depletion in the latter stages of endurance athletic events (probably not on the table here).
re: «I’m afraid that might put me into a diabetic coma after 2.5 years keto.»
Are/were you diabetic? Sudden carb over-exposure can be pretty unpleasant for people on very low net carb diets, but I would not expect that reaction if merely transitioning from under-20 to 50g net carbs/day (absent confounding factors like T1D or LADA).
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2.5 years almost continuous keto. Wheat Belly version. I get my prebiotic fiber from glucomannan (powder and noodles), chia, flax, hummus (small amounts), 100% cacao dark chocolate, and a bunch of different vegetables that are frequently mentioned on the various lists of top prebiotic fiber sources. I eat more plant foods than most keto folks but I rarely go over 25 net carbs per day. Total fiber intake up to around 40g/day (at least 30g is recommended for breast cancer patients.). I also do take a high potency probiotic as a safety measure to prevent gut problems from the keto, although I probably don’t need it with everything else I do.
DocMuscles Adam Nally says 100-150 carbs per day to reverse glucose-sparing: “Not to worry, glucose sparing is rapidly reversible and transitory within 1-3 days of increasing carbohydrate intake above 100-150 grams per day (1).” I don’t read him enough to know if he is “chronic keto,” but I think so. I don’t have the same problems with glucose-sparing that I used to since I started paying more attention to prebiotic fiber, but if I raise carbs above 30 or so my blood sugar does get higher (FBG in the 90s, up from 75-80), and it doesn’t adjust back down if I do that for several days. That’s why I was thinking a shock to the system might be in order. I don’t like staying in the 90s because of the cancer, even if it doesn’t qualify as pre-diabetic. I can mitigate it somewhat with exercise, but I don’t want that to be a requirement because there are times I can’t exercise.
I was not diabetic, or even pre-diabetic even when I was morbidly obese (FBG typically around 86). The cancer med may play a role. I don’t think it directly causes diabetes, but it can push folks with a predisposition into it. I never get into diabetic range even on the rare occasion I indulge my addiction to corn tortillas (organic, non-gmo as if that excuses me LOL). That would put FBG up around 110 for a day or so, but I hardly ever do that anymore, after I accidentally re-awakened cravings and inflammation in the form of severe pain from indulging too many times in a single month. Sudden carb over-exposure has never caused much of a reaction in me besides the blood glucose, unless I over-indulge on wheat, which I haven’t done in a couple of years.
I don’t know that I need to take a keto break in my circumstances, but it concerns me sometimes because a lot of people whose opinions I trust seem to think it’s necessary.
Kali wrote: «2.5 years almost continuous keto.»
That’s outside KD durations currently contemplated by the program, which tend to be short enough that no special transition advice is presently provided.
re: «I get my prebiotic fiber from…»
Sounds like that’s well in hand.
re: «I also do take a high potency probiotic as a safety measure to prevent gut problems from the keto, although I probably don’t need it with everything else I do.»
Do stay tuned, as we may see some material developments on the topic of microbiota.
re: «…DocMuscles Adam Nally says 100-150 carbs per day to reverse glucose-sparing…»
I was curious as to whether that was net or total carbs, but his cite is to a rodent trial, so it didn’t clear that up. The 100-150 figure would have to be for humans, and it appears he’s had some experience in helping people on KD not get ambushed by false positives on OGTTs.
re: «…but if I raise carbs above 30 or so my blood sugar does get higher (FBG in the 90s, up from 75-80)…»
What are your HbA1c and TG doing during these intervals where you are watching BG? I’m just curious in case there’s any idiosyncratic discordance afoot.
re: «The cancer med may play a role.»
I’m not sure we’ve discussed what med is in use here (of if we did, it’s buried in old threads not easily found in this blog format).
re: «I don’t know that I need to take a keto break in my circumstances, but it concerns me sometimes because a lot of people whose opinions I trust seem to think it’s necessary.»
Are these the same people who appreciate the potential value of KD in management of glycophillic tumor risk?
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I take tamoxifen. Besides the possibility of T2D in someone with a predisposition, it’s also known to cause hypertriglyceridemia in some people. Neither issue happens in the majority of folks who take it. I have never been able to get my triglycerides below 65 no matter what I do. I’m happy with that number though, considering I started around 130, and it could be a lot worse. I wonder if the med is having some subtle effect and my diet saves me from the full-blown problems.
A1C has been 4.8-4.9 pretty consistently, and that remained true even when I was having the prolonged glucose-sparing episodes last year that would last almost a week sometimes. I was also never kicked out of ketosis during these episodes as long as I went right back to keto levels of carbs after the glucose sparing was triggered. Even with FBG above 100 for days I stayed in nutritional ketosis per the blood ketone meter, but barely. That was super strange to me and I still don’t know what to think about it.
I haven’t had my labs run in quite awhile, but I have new orders and I will know soon. A1C may have gone up some because I was in the high 90s quite a bit over the holidays, but I never broke 100 that I know of. I kept carbs within WB/Undoctored guidelines, but more than I would normally eat. I was always still in ketosis when I tested, but I can’t really say if that was all the time because the test strips are too expensive to test regularly.
As for the trusted opinions I was referring to, Dr. Davis’ recommendation against long-term keto has always been in the back of my mind, but of course he isn’t gearing his advice toward someone in my circumstances, and maybe he wouldn’t recommend against it for me knowing that I modify it to follow most of his other advice. And just in general, you hear chronic keto isn’t a good idea , even from people with similar thinking to ours, so I second guess myself. Left to my own thinking I feel no pressing need to take a keto break, because I like the diet, it’s not a struggle to stay on it, and I’m probably the healthiest cancer patient walking. So maybe I won’t take a break after all.
You are so patient with my wordy posts, Bob. Much appreciated, as always.
Kali wrote: «I take tamoxifen.»
Yes, I see that we discussed that here a couple of years ago. You’re way ahead of me on considerations regarding its use. As we learn more and more about how to avoid cancer (most forms of which look optional to me), a question that needs addressing is how to determine when a prophylactic med is not longer required.
By the way, have you discovered any resources that you think are particularly useful (and active) in metabolic management of cancer?
re: «I have never been able to get my triglycerides below 65 no matter what I do. … A1C has been 4.8-4.9 pretty consistently…»
The low A1c doesn’t look to me to be entirely concordant with the slightly elevated TG and BGs. I’m wondering if the med isn’t biasing one or more, but which, I couldn’t guess. Prebiotic and probiotic tweaking may be of use here, so follow developments here.
re: «…Dr. Davis’ recommendation against long-term keto has always been in the back of my mind…»
I should mention that I use the phrase “chronic keto” not as a pejorative, but just to get people to think about it. Some chronic conditions (e.g. refractory epilepsy and perhaps glycophillic cancers with high relapse risk) need to rely on a chronic diet, but even there, it can come with some side effects, which may take a year or more to reveal themselves.
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I have a concern about a recent in the New York Times – see https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/16/health/fat-diet-prostate-cancer.html – suggesting the increased possibility of prostate cancer for those on a diet (alluded to in the article) very similar to that of a successful wheat belly diet. Now, please understand that I am not “trolling” this blog or the Wheat Belly diet concept. Rather, I have followed the diet successfully for almost three years and have achieved wonderful results – 50 pounds of weight loss and a huge improvement in all blood chemistry lab results along, all allowing me to discontinue use of statins (against the suggestion of my ‘old-school’, primary care physician) and blood pressure meds.
However, my prostate-specific antigen (PSA) test ‘numbers’ show a marked increase over the last two-plus years – about the time of my adopting a total Wheat Belly diet lifestyle. More disclosure: I am 70 years old, when enlargement of the prostate can be anticipated, but have never had a PSA test result (yearly tests done for many years) that would suggest a problem except for the last two-plus years during which I have followed the Wheat Belly plan. Coincidence? Maybe. But, the issue causes me pause as to what the hidden negative ramifications of this diet could be. I would appreciate some response to this specific issue by some qualifed representative of the Wheat Belly doctrine as this issue is of significant concern to me.
James Farrell wrote: «I have a concern about a recent in the New York Times…»
I always have concerns about anything in the NYT ☺
The article did link to the Nature paper, but that, alas, is pay-walled. I would otherwise have zoomed right into the supplementary materials, in search of a thorough breakdown of the diets used. I’m disinclined to pay the $59 troll toll, only to discover what I suspect, namely:
This was a rodent trial (which is not inherently troubling), but standard lab chows for both mice and rats are metabolic disasters. The so-called “high fat” chows are particularly confounding, because:
a. the elevated fats are usually industrial grain and legume oils, high in inflammatory Omega 6 linoleic acid, and
b. they are not low carb diets, as they usually still contain ample net carbs, often grain starches if not frank simple sugars.
re: «…my prostate-specific antigen (PSA) test ‘numbers’ show a marked increase over the last two-plus years…»
Get a 4K (4-Kallikrein) test (and after this year’s flu season is over). The PSA is notorious for both false negatives, and false positives (leading to needless needle biopsies — some family experience on that). The biopsy itself is not without risk, with a national infection rate of 2-6%, including bacteremia, easily resistant bacteria.
Rather than explore other methods of detecting prostate cancer, consensus medicine likes to invent new ways to torture the poor old PSA (“velocity” and such like), in the hopes of getting it to confess something it doesn’t really know. PSA, in my view, is right up there with BMI, TC, LDL-C and TSH in the pantheon of near-useless markers whose only value is to indicate a need truly informative tests.
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While I appreciate a response to my initial posting, I am troubled by the fact that you masquerade as a medical practitioner dispensing advice. In the spirit of full disclosure, you should preface your frequent, myriad posts with the fact that you are simply a layperson with no medical credentials, as your posted bona fides outline.
Let’s put aside your obvious political bias evident by your opinion of NYT reporting and the experiments with mice for the moment. Now, I do accept your explanation on the details of those mice lab tests as being inconclusive at best and more likely to be faulty and of no value to us male homo sapiens. Point made by you.
Repeating, I am 100% onboard with the Wheat Belly doctrine, and have achieved fantastic results – period. Kudos to Dr. Davis. I own and have read three of his books.
With that said, the Wheat Belly diet is a dramatic departure from the ‘norm’ – for better (what I believe) or worse. And its growing following seems at first glance to be a new approach to health management. Thus, one has to wonder what possible, unknown at this point, long term effects just might be lurking that have not been addressed or discovered given a complete change of eating habits. So questions like prostate health, kidney stones and the like are issues that any reasonable, health-conscious adult would want to consider when making such a dramatic lifestyle change.
And, as an aside, and responding to your unsolicited prostate suggestions, I’ll seek and accept medical advice about prostate health from a board certified Urologist rather than someone not qualified to provide guidance.
James Farrell wrote: «I am troubled by the fact that you masquerade as a medical practitioner…»
Please identify the masquerade. I use a signature line that clearly identifies my role, and illuminates that a full disclosure can be had by clicking my user name on any post.
re: «Let’s put aside your obvious political bias evident by your opinion of NYT reporting…»
No, that’s you making assumptions about the nature of my “concern”, which I didn’t elaborate on, and which was clearly tagged as humor in any case.
re: «So questions like prostate health, kidney stones and the like are issues that any reasonable, health-conscious adult would want to consider when making such a dramatic lifestyle change.»
As it happens, the Undoctored Inner Circle has a protocol for kidney stones. It does not for cancer, and specifically nothing for prostate cancer, so if you raise the issue here (or on the UIC forum for that matter), what you’ll get are personal opinions. Prostate cancer (PC) does not appear to be glycophillic, so the benefits of low-carb per se in PC are unclear to me (as a member of the gender with an interest in the topic). The low inflammatory and immune-supporting aspects of the diet might come into play in what appears to be some benefit.
Scare stories about PC risk related to high fat and/or red meat require drilling down to details. Every time I’ve done it, I find no data to support the headlines.
re: «…responding to your unsolicited prostate suggestions, I’ll seek and accept medical advice about prostate health from a board certified Urologist…»
As you wish, but now you know that dissident views exist. Go with the Standard of Care, expect SoC results.
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Never ceases to amaze me the kind of class you exhibit when dealing with morons of all stripes. I’m sure the vast majority of followers of this lifestyle appreciate all the hard work you unselfishly put in for the benefit of others. BRAVO Bob
Dread the Bread wrote: «…when dealing with…»
Thanks for the support Dread, but let’s avoid personal attacks.
re: «…all the hard work you unselfishly put in…»
Don’t forget that I am compensated for most of it — the responses that address program points, or personal situations where the program might have insight (or doesn’t, and that can be useful too).
I might add, for anyone concerned that my earlier 4K suggestion implies refusing a Standard of Care test; the 4-K includes a PSA, so it’s a superset of SoC. If the GP or specialist doesn’t want to run a 4-K, that may be a signal for the empowered patient to conduct some independent investigation.
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Do you mran like masquerading as a medical practitioner? I guess I should not see that as a personal attack. Yes lets all the rest of us always let the bullies push us around. Not!!!